Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona's Broken Arrow Trail

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by juanblzer, Jul 29, 2002.

  1. juanblzer

    juanblzer 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Posts:
    1,614
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Chandler, Arizona
    250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    OK, I was camping in Oak Creek Canyon and me and a buddy decide to take my blazer over to wheel the Pink Jeep Tour's trails. I had heard they were pretty tame but wheeling is wheeling so we went. We get to the trail head and two jeep tours are ahead of us. The first "obstacle" is a stairstep that requires most stock vehicles to turn around. This obstacle leads into a little area that looks like a play area.

    Mistake #1
    There is one ledge that has several different lines in this play area. There are tire marks all over the ledges and being the wheeler that I am, I attempted one of the ledges. On my first attempt at a climb I glance over and realize that two hikers are watching us. The man is quite upset and relates that those ledges are considered off trail.

    Mistake #2
    I am usually quite nice, FWP can attest to this, but this guy was acting like he was a head honcho over at the Forest service so I asked if he was with the forest service. He related that he was not but he would report me to them. I immmediately started to act sarcastic about how fearful I was but I did back down the obstacle and continue on the trail.

    We continued on the trail and played in two other places. I came really close to rolling a couple of times but had fun and I can honestly say that I did not damage any plants or rocks.

    As we are heading back to the trail head I notice a forest service truck is blocking the path. I inquire as to what the situation is and she says that I am being cited for off-roading. We sit there and wait for at least an hour as 2 other forest officers come to aid this one. We sit and I am nothing but polite. It seems our friends that we met earlier said we were damaging the trail and that were were traveling off trail. This is considered "probabable cause" and I was cited. This is called a "destruction of a natural resource of U.S". IT is a 250 dollar fine.

    This trail, like Moab, does not always have defined boundaries. The sign that is posted merely relates that it is necessary to stay on trail at all times. THe problem that I encountered was that trail boundaries are not very defined. Several of the areas are wide open. They look and feel like "play areas". I know if someone makes a little fence out of rocks, it means that the area behind it is not a part of the trail. I know how to read signs. It is disturbing to be cited for attempting to tread lightly.

    I plan on taking this to court. I've been wheeling since high school and I know destructive wheeling. THis was nothign of the sort. ANy ideas, comments?
     
  2. Lance

    Lance 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2002
    Posts:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Man, that totally sucks!! /forums/images/icons/frown.gif I saw this on the "Off-Road" web-site. Thought it may contain some good info for you. Good Luck!!!
     
  3. 8_YOUR_H2

    8_YOUR_H2 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Posts:
    2,663
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Iowa
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Take pictures of the area where you were wheeling and show them (the judge) there was nothing that indicated you were off the trail.

    Then find hiker dude and kick his a$$ /forums/images/icons/mad.gif
     
  4. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Posts:
    4,522
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC, Oklahoma
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Friggin Tree Huggers!!!!!!!! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif I cannot believe the shape this country is in when people have nothing better to do than reporting people for mamby pamby BS! Last I saw, this still is a free country, and therefore because someone doesn't enjoy something that you do, doesn't mean that it should be against the law! People should pay more attention to their personal affairs, and less time worrying about the affairs of others. Yep, I'd make a point of whoopin' that hiker's butt!

    John
     
  5. FRIZZLEFRY

    FRIZZLEFRY 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2001
    Posts:
    3,271
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Clovis CA
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    So no chance to explain your side and show him where you were?

    I agree,go kick that hikers ass /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    Good luck in court.
     
  6. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    7,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Since the FS person did not see you then they are not a first hand witness. If the hiker does not show up in court as a first hand whitness then it is hersay that the FS ranger ticketed you when they did not personnaly see you off the trail. Then add to the fact that the trail is not clearly defined as what is the correct train and what is not is your second defence. So if the FS does not have information on how to contact this hiker to Sopena them to court to testify against you that you should be able to beat it. It's like speeding. People can report you all day long but if the cop dosn't see it then it's near impossible to convict without other evidence such as Skid marks.
    See FS personel are not cops. They are not going to know the ins and outs. Basicly this is a situation where they are counting on your stupidity to cover theirs and figure you will just pay the fine. As long as you didn't admit to where you were to them and they didn't document I doubt you will be convicted. Just be sure to tell the Judge that a second party said you were off trail but the FS was not present to whitness this or tell you that you were not where you were supose to be. I think for you to have recived any charges from a private citizen then the hiker would have had to be present as you were charged.
    The area had a bunch of side trails that were not marked as close and you thought that since there was no indication that the trails you ran up was not legal since there were plenty of tire marks indicating other had gone the same way. The FS should have marked the area as NOT open. The correect trail should have had diamond pleced every so often to let you know you were on the correct trail and if those were not present on the correct trail then you had no way of knowing.
    I'll see if I can find a picture of what a closed trail should look like. It will have a sign that clearly say's closed. DO NOT BRING A PICTURE OF THE AREA to court. As much as you can use it to show that it was confusing the FS can use it to say the main trail ran down the middle.
     
  7. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2001
    Posts:
    4,606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    hire a lawyer.
    do not ever try and speak to a Judge without proper legal counsel.
     
  8. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    7,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Kewl the lawers retaining fee is usualy about $500-700. Good idea. That lawyer will get him right out of that $250 fine.
     
  9. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 11, 2000
    Posts:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tucson Az
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Arizona Sucks!!! Mostly because people come from everywhere ELSE to visit and enforce their ideas, opinions and beliefs on us. Course that's just my opinion and beliefs. Seriously tho, I agree with Grim. Go to court, plead your case, state the facts, tell the judge about your off road experience. It's not like your truck doesnt blend in with the crowd, so you're not going to do stupid [censored] to get yourself in trouble or attract attention. You obviously aren't a pizza delivery guy doing doughnuts in a dirt lot. You'll come out ahead. Personally I'd stay out of Sedona, too many freaks and movie stars and pink jeeps.
     
  10. trailblazer87

    trailblazer87 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Posts:
    707
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Madera, CA
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Unfortunately the USDA Forest Service DOES have law enforecment powers when on forest. The Law enforcement personel usually drive bronco's, Blazers, and expeditions. They do have powers of arrest and detainment, a vast majority are K9 units for search and rescue, and also firefighters. All Forest Service personnel are red carded fire suppression personnel. Trust me on this, I was a Hot Shot for 2 years based out of Oakhurst station, on the Sierra National Forest. That was the best shape I was ever in, in my life, now its all table muscle /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
    The FS personnel did not witness this happening, unless she does get the hippy subpoena'd you will come out of this without any trouble. DO take pictures of the area. Get clear shots of the tracks, area above and below the supposed boundary, etc. Get a witness, and legal council is probably a good idea also.
     
  11. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2001
    Posts:
    4,606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    it costs to win.
    losing is always cheaper.
     
  12. Scorpion

    Scorpion Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Posts:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Once you get cited, you've already lost. "Asking a lawyer" sounds good but the truth is that they have a bunch of books that they look up info in and if they don't specialize in what you are on trial for, the you're basically paying for there interpretation of the law which may not help you any more than if you went and stood in front of the judge yourself.

    I laugh at how some think that if you pay a lawyer, you actually get a chance to win. It has been my experience that it only makes you a better informed looser. What do you get for your legal fees? They tell you what could happen, they tell you want the actual law was that you broke, and they tell you your options (which I hope any normal person can figure out anyway - fight it or accept the deal from the D.A.).

    I have always felt it is a better idea to stand infront of the judge like a man (I think that alone says something). Tell him the facts that lead you to believe that the trail wasn't closed and embelish on the conversation with the hiker. The hiker won't show so if you say that he yelled at you for driving on hiking trails, he said something about how driving off asphalt isn't fair to mother earth, and so on...what's the judge going to say if your point is that you are a responsible driver and you respect all trail signs. You realize that some don't believe in off road travel but it is your right as long as you do so responsibly. Judges deal with idiots that try to sqeak by on bullshit. Give them a good reason to believe your bullshit and they'll go easy on you.

    Lawyer Fee = Win ... ha ,ha
     
  13. Sandman

    Sandman 3/4 ton status Author

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Posts:
    5,653
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pocatello, ID
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    I couldnt agree more. Many moons ago, I was stuck with a buying beer for miners ticket that I was actually innocent on. Anyway the lawyer laughed and said "plead guilty, pay your $50 fine, and go home". Try 10 days in Jail. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif Never ever plead guilty, its up to them to prove that you where in the wrong. Most likely if you give your story to the prosecuter he'll drop it.
     
  14. Scorpion

    Scorpion Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Posts:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    The real issue here is the evolution (if you want to call it that) of the legal system. We have so many damn laws, we can no longer do anything in life without being in violation of something. It's more of a don't do this, don't do that perspective. Sad truth is that as soon as you enter the legal system, you have to prove yourself innocent which can be very costly and difficult considering legal council now charge like they are Doctors only they don't care about the end result like Doctors do. In a country that was founded on freedom, we are the most un-free citizens ever.

    Short of building a rig, driving it on the street, and never breaking a law doing so, we have to take the responsibility on ourselves to be ever so careful of where we plop our 4 wheels. Rest assured, there is someone out there that doesn't want us driving at all and even more people that would love to keep us off the trails forever.

    As for the other laws that restrict us, we have to watch our steps. Some one, some where, is looking to challenge each and every one of our freedoms...
     
  15. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2001
    Posts:
    4,606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    lawyer fee = win has always worked for me.
    they know the correct manner in which to present your case on trial day.
    consulting one but not having him do the court appearance is a waste of time.
    law enforcement goes through training to learn the correct way to lie in court, to counter that you need a professional.
    it is always worth the price of admission to watch a good lawyer shred someone in court.
     
  16. Scorpion

    Scorpion Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Posts:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    I'll be honest, if I had won even one of my cases while having a lawyer, I would probably feel differently than I do but so far they haven't been worth the money I've paid. It has been my experience that the only thing that was chaged was the over all cost, not the result.
     
  17. trailblazer87

    trailblazer87 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Posts:
    707
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Madera, CA
    Re: 250 Reasons not to wheel on Sedona Arizona\'s Broken Arrow Trail

    Just remember that a lawyer is proffesional liar and advocate for hire. They will do just about anything if the money is right. I keep one on retainer full time for good reason, he is my family estate lawyer. Because of him we won't have to pay any taxes when somebody in the family dies.
     

Share This Page