Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

454 Oil Pump

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by k20, Apr 19, 2003.

  1. k20

    k20 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Posts:
    5,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mineral Springs, NC
    Hey all just ordered all the parts to turn my 454 into a 496 today. Anyway, now started looking at the other things to get(cant buy at the moment, outta money). Anyway, oil pumps, theres high volume, high volume high pressure, reg volume reg pressure...., which one do i need? Awhile ago i seem to remember someone saying a reg volume, high pressure pump. However i havent seen any that are this config. Also, when it says high volume or it says high pressure what is considered high? I mean volume is it gonna be double stock and drain my pan? and pressure is it gonna be peggin my stock 60psi gauge cuz its running 70 all the time? thanks
     
  2. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    [ QUOTE ]
    pressure is it gonna be peggin my stock 60psi gauge cuz its running 70 all the time? thanks

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Definite possiblity. My dad had a shop put his 454 together (and didn't get specs on the part /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif), and installed a diesel 80PSI gauge. Pegs that thing cold, and drops down to about 70PSI warm, hot about 50PSI.
     
  3. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hancock, MI
    High volume, regular pressure. It helps prevent severe damage if one bearing fails. It puts more oil through the motor than needed but it's an extra insurance policy. High pressure will only dump more oil in than you need. High pressure/high volume pumps tend to wear distributor gears.
     
  4. Lonnie

    Lonnie 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Posts:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    High press has a higher pressure relief spring. It will only increase oil pressure assuming the pump has sufficient volume.

    High volume has larger gears to pump more oil. Any excess pressure/volume will bleed out the bypass valve of the pump back to the pan.

    You do not need high pressure. Only 10# pressure per 1000 RPM is needed in this motor. A stock pump has a relief at approx 45#. A Melling high volume has relief set for approx 60#. I buy high volume exclusively. Yes they take a few more HP to drive & can wear the drive gear if you run thick oil..... but I never had a problem. My 427 holds 45 at idle hot (10w40)& 60 at anything over 2000rpm.

    If you went to the effort to buy a stroker crank, spend the extra $250-300 & buy a good pan/windage tray. It will free up more power & also control oil to prevent starvation. Sucking the pan dry should not be a problem. My Camaro (402) sees 7200-7400 shift points with a high Volume Melling & 5qt pan.
     
  5. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hancock, MI
    Yeah, and the high pressure pumps usually have tighter tolerances. Sometimes they have different gear configurations to build pressure better. A stocker pump usually starts "leaking" a lot of oil before it gets to the 50lb spring bypass.

    High volume pumps usually have different gears and bodies to allow up to ~40% more volume. Most pumps come with 70lb springs in them but have a 50lb spring loose in the package with directions to change if you see fit. The reason they don't build pressure is that they're sloppy inside just like a regular pump. If you want more volume ability oldschool people use bigblock pumps on a smallblock and use a different intermediate shaft. I don't know what the bigblock guys do for more volume besides spend hundreds on an aftermarket pump. Someday I'll own a bigblock. Someday... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    If I were to spend that kind of coin on a pan I'd buy ARP main studs with provisions for a Milodon windage tray (which are a lot cheaper than a pan). I'd also buy a crank scraper.

    If he's doing a roller top end he'll want to put oil restrictors in or he just might suck the pan dry under certain conditions.
     
  6. k20

    k20 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Posts:
    5,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mineral Springs, NC
    Yeh im doing a roller top end, and i got the milodon windage tray. Ok, im on cold medicine, so what you are sayin is id be better off with the high volume reg pressure? Is that the general consensus? or do i need to wait to take another dose, and re-read?
     
  7. madmike

    madmike 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Posts:
    496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ohio
    Congrats on the stroker/bore combo! I'm doing the same thing, only 489ci (0.030" less bore than yours), and I can't afford to go roller though. Yes, the consensus seems to be high volume, regular pressure. I haven't decided myself whether to go with an ARP main stud kit and crank scraper or not (its the coinage issue) but now would be the time to do it. Lemme know what you think of your engine when you get it running, you'll probably have yours assembled and installed before me! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  8. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    What are you doing with the used stock stuff?

    Hello,

    Sorry to but in but I was wondering what happens to your stock stuff. Does it go back as a core? I am looking for a good stock crank and rods. The one I have ('85 454) has a rod knock and I'm trying to get it together as cheaply(Low dollar not low quality) for my tow vehicle. Anyone have anything they wish to sell? If so what is it and how much? Thanks.

    Rich
     
  9. k20

    k20 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Posts:
    5,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mineral Springs, NC
    [ QUOTE ]
    you'll probably have yours assembled and installed before me! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Doubt it, aimin for MAYBE mid june, thats if i get money together fairly rapidly. Probably end up late july the way my time scale tends to work.
     
  10. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    I also have done some research on the subject and the price differences. Is it really worth the coinage to have the pump body and gears tumbled( I'm not sure in what). This seemed quite expensive. Also the difference between the standard vol and high volume Melling was about $10 to $15 more for the high volume(Which was about $50 plus shipping). Does anyone have a recomendation as to which brand is better(quality, cheaper, what ever)? What do you have in your engine? Thanks.

    Rich
     
  11. fortcollinsram

    fortcollinsram 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Posts:
    2,261
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    I have always used Melling pumps...they are cheap and they work well...I can't justify spending $150 on a pump...On my 454, I am using the Melling HV pump with a 6qt pan, steel pinned collar on the itermediate shaft...

    Chris
     
  12. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hancock, MI
    I used to have a lot of faith in Melling stuff. However, one day, I lost it. I forgot what kind of pump I put in my motor after the Melling high volume one bit the dust, it was name brand but not expensive. I put a standard pump in my new motor, yet again, I forget what brand.

    I also invest in ARP intermediate shafts from here on out, just in case. I'll probably never buy another Melling pump, even though it was probably just a freak accident. Spending a day changing a oil pump in the snow in 10° weather in 20mph wind was not enjoyable. Nor was ruining bearings.

    Less than 10,000 miles on pump:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I never found any crap in the pump or junk in the pan other than the pieces of the pump input shaft.
     
  13. Lonnie

    Lonnie 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Posts:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Judging from the picture..... I do not see a steel sleeved drive shaft here. This is mandatory with any HV oil pump & in my opinion should be used on all buildups. A shaft failure will ruin the pump as shown. A pump failure is indeed possible, but not likely. I've personally seen 3 of this type of failure (various brand pumps on motors that I fixed but did not originally build) & all so far have had a stock shaft. Spend the extra $15 for a shaft unless you like doing things twice. I use Melling pumps on all my buildups unless they will be revved in excess of 6500-7000 for extended periods... then I use a Canton or Moroso pressure balanced pump (approx $90) that reduces cavitation at high RPM. These pumps will have lower pressure (approx 10-15 less) at idle so I do not use these unless needed. Hope this helps save someone some grief.
     
  14. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hancock, MI
    From the post you replied to:
    [ QUOTE ]
    I also invest in ARP intermediate shafts from here on out, just in case.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Need I say more... again?

    I know the steel sleeve is supposed to be used... but the pump came with a brand spanking new nylon sleeve in the box. The sleeve, by the way, was still relatively soft and not brittle like they usually get once they get old. IE, it was split, but I could fold itself in half and it not break.

    Now, I checked to see how much slop that shaft had in it inside the block. It only allowed ~1/16" of deflection because of the tight end at the distributor. You can't tell me that the shaft slopping around in the hole killed the oil pump input shaft if it's true the sleeve broke. That's the same amount of slop it has with a sleeve.
     
  15. ratlover

    ratlover 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Posts:
    215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Peorial IL
    A melling HV would be my choice with a lite weight oil, like 10 30 or 5 30 and regular bearing clearances. Use a drive shaft with the steel color not the nylon crap as has been said. A melling HV pump is 40$ or so, not big money. Lose clearances and thick oil are a bad idea IMO. A HV pump basicly gives you a little more pressure than stock at the highend but more on the lower end. That make sense??? The name HV is a buch of crap, its not really higher volume but what ever, its just more pressure at the lower rpms. 10psi per 1000 is all you need and HV pumps are generally over kill but do you want to stick a regular pump in there and see that your not getting enough at idel and have the choice of running syrup for oil or changing the pump? HV is a good all around compromise.

    DO NOT RUN OIL RESTRICTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    They are a race only peice and they dont even belong on most race cars.

    When you say roller you mean solid roller right?

    While you have your motor appart you might wana put some trash screens in there, cheap insurance.

    Also you know that you should have your block reline honed or at least checked if you switch to main studs right? The stud kits are also like 100$.

    Windage should not be your concern. Windage is only a big deal(15hp maybe) at high rpm. I dont think a windage tray or scrapers or anything in the pan or otherwise should be a priority for you. How often do you plan yon having your 496 spinning at 6500rpm? Even 6000rpm is a piston speed of 4250 wich is freaking flying!!!

    A pan with bigger capacity would be nice and the only thing you should really be worried about IMO. and you can even make your own "kicked out" sump to pick up capacity and not spend much if you got a welder and a bit of patience. A rear baffle to keep the oil from climing up the back of the pan under hard acceleration would be kinda nice to have but not maditory really.

    /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif This is all my oppinion btw. use at your own risk, I'm not resposible for any damages as a direct or indirect result of doing things the right way......err....I mean by following my advice, I will also not be held liable for any death or dimemberment of you, or any of your lovedones/bysandards, dolphins, ect. *insert more legal crap here* yada yada yada.....

    have fun and good luck with the build up /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  16. madmike

    madmike 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Posts:
    496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ohio
    Re: What are you doing with the used stock stuff?

    I'd love to sell you the used stock stuff, but my engine was assembled as a 402, using a 454 block that was only factory bored to the smaller 402 piston diameter. Not only are my pistons too small, but my crank is only 3.76" stroke, compared to the 454's larger 4.00" stroke. Nothing I have will really work for you. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Keep surfing the net, look for "engine rebuild kits" and "engine rotating assemblies", you'll find what you need at a price you're willing to pay. Good luck! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  17. ratlover

    ratlover 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Posts:
    215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Peorial IL
    Re: What are you doing with the used stock stuff?

    I've got a 454 40 over that has yet to be fired. Probably more high dollar than you want though. New hyper pistons, ati balancer, main studs, line honed, balanced, egal rods, melling oil pump, stewart h2o pump, comp timing chain cover, crane cam/lifters. Pref rpm air gap and cool cast al VC's. Promag rockers. Manly valves, arp head studs and aftermarket pushrods for merlin heads. Valvesprings locks and retainers. Its pretty much complete short of the heads. Its just taking up space in my garage since my velle ait going to see day light anytime soon. It has never been ran. I'd want close to what I have in it though so it wouldnt really be on a budget.
     
  18. k20

    k20 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Posts:
    5,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mineral Springs, NC
    [ QUOTE ]

    When you say roller you mean solid roller right?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    When I say roller, im doing hydraulic roller cam, roller lifters, roller rockers. All that good stuff lol.
     
  19. ratlover

    ratlover 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Posts:
    215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Peorial IL
    Hydralic roller lifters are extreamly rpm limited especially in a BBC. You aint going to have to worry about windage a bit. She should be one hell of a ground pounder though /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif

    Edit: restrictors in a solid cammed motor aint a good idea in almost all motors IMO but you cant run restrictors on any hydralic cam. Well you could I guess, we could all take bets on how long it takes before you chow parts. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif

    I also wouldnt personally run a hydralic roller in a toy but I'm sure you know all the advantages/disadvantages and if it is what will best suit you then go for it /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  20. wrathORC

    wrathORC 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Posts:
    908
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hancock, MI
    Normally I agree with you 100% of the time but today... today it's down to 99%. hehe. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Look at the body of a high volume pump and the body of a standard pump. If you can't see the size differences then something is wrong.


    Oil restrictors is a possibility for roller top ends. You don't need to swamp the top of the heads with oil, you'll just squirt all your oil out and have nothing left in the pan. For someone that always tells me that a high volume pump robs horsepower because it dumps too much oil you seem kind of loony in this aspect... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    It is recommended you have the block align-honed if you switch fasteners. I don't think it's a big deal with studs because you aren't twisting the bolts in. If there were to be any distortion it'd be miniscule at 70ftlbs compared to new bolts. Now, if it were a race motor I'd have my reservations about not align-honing. However, I'm sure any distortion that is there probably was there to begin with. My 305 has ARP main studs and no align-honing.

    Windage trays are a big deal if you bounce around a lot or have a serious flow of oil happening like 20psi with a high volume oil pump. You're practically dumping oil in the motor. Most trucks bounce around a lot. The less time oil spends slopping around the less it foams.

    A crank scraper is a good idea if you want to spend the $15 and the couple hours to file down to fit your crank. If your truck bounces around a lot oil will be on your crank all the time especially without a windage tray. The less time the oil spends on the crank the less it foams.

    A pan baffle (the ones that goes under the oil pump) that keeps the oil from going up the back of the pan and on the crank is a good idea too.

    However, I'm not a believer in lifter valley baffles. They keep the oil from hitting the bottom of the intake and keeps valvetrain carnage to a minimum if something goes AWOL... but none of that really makes that much of a difference.


    I plan on getting a windage tray, a pan baffle, and a crank scraper for my next motor. They don't cost much and they don't hurt performance so why not?
     

Share This Page