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5 speed swap from 700r4

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by dalynchmob, Oct 29, 2006.

  1. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    Does anyone know if it is possible to swap a 5 speed into a 78 k10? I had a t-350 then switched to a 700r4 but i don't like it. It seems weak. I would like to get a 5 speed so i can put lower gears in it without having my rpms go through the roof on the highway. All i can find right now is the sm465 4 speed. I wouldn't mind that if i could get one without the granny low. Any advice is apprieciated.
     
  2. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    NV4500 if you want beef with an overdrive.

    Getrag/NV3500 if it's more a street truck.

    I went with the NV4500 which replaced my old SM 465. Gearing is almost identical except the NV4500 has the overdrive.

    It's not a hard swap, but there is a fair amount of other stuff that goes along with the tranny swap...and it all adds up.

    Rene
     
  3. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    Is it more difficult than the t350 to 700r4 swap? I thought that was fairly easy only mods were the new hole for the cross member. I was think of finding a truck with a manuel in it and snagging all the pedals and the floor plate. Any special adapters needed for t-case or engine? What's a good company that sells that trans?
     
  4. sandawgk5

    sandawgk5 3/4 ton status

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    What do you do with it? If you dont want granny low just use a NV3500 it is a normal 5 speed manual and a lot cheaper than a 4500. I have 185K on 700R4 and it is doing fine. The last 4 years of its life have not been easy either. I think 700r4s get a bad name but if kept cool will last a good while.

    Ira
     
  5. sandawgk5

    sandawgk5 3/4 ton status

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    You will need a flywheel and a clutch as well as everything you listed. Then do you want a mechanical clutch or a Hydraulic clutch? What transmission are you going to use? Going from auto to manual is not hard but it is no where near as easy as auto to auto.

    Ira
     
  6. Ben B.

    Ben B. 1/2 ton status

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    I have an SM465 in my '78 K10....I'd love to swap to a 5 speed.
     
  7. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Hey Rene... Not to drag this too off topic, but whats the deal with a 5600? Has anyone done that? Sounded brutally strong, I guess size might be an issue...
     
  8. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    I would be getting a parts truck with problably a stock 4 speed manuel in it to get all the required stuff to change from auto to manuel. The truck spends most of it's life as my daily driver but i like to off road on the weekends occasionally. I would also like some lower gear in the axles for a little extra get up off the line but at the same time not sacrifice getting ridiculous rpms on the highway. I currently have 3.08s in it. Oh yeah i was thinking mechanical clutch.
     
  9. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    For NV4500:

    Flywheel, clutch, pressure plate T.O. bearing
    Advance Adaptors Bellhousing
    Clutch master, line and clutch slave
    Adaptor bracket for clutch slave
    Pedal hanger W/ pedals ('85 up)

    Issues:

    You'll need to do an input gear swap for the T-case
    Shifter hole in the tranny tunnel will not match up with anything the factory dimpled for you. The shifter is about 5" farther back than an SM 465.
    A 208 or 241 will bolt up though, but you might need to oval one hole on the NV4500's output housing.
    Crossmember should be pretty easy, the NV4500 has the same 7.5" hole spacing commonly found on most K series crossmembers.
    driveshafts will need shortening and lengthening.
    T-case shift linkage will need some messing with.

    Rene
     
  10. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    yeah, it's a huge tranny from what I've heard...and if what I've read is true it weighs more than double what the NV4500 does. It was also never offered in a GM so the bell would have to be aftermarket, and the output spline count would be Dodge (29 spline?)

    The GM variant is the ZF-S6-650 which is also a brute, but nowhere near as heavy as the NV5600. Integral bell and all aluminum...and hard to find used. I looked around for a while and came up empty. I'm also not sure if it uses the standard GM bell pattern. The Ford's used the ZF 6 speed a lot, and with Ford not having the Allison as an option a ton more Fords got the 6 speed than GM's. I think if a guy wanted a heavy duty 6 speed it might be 'easier' (I'm using the term very loosely) to adapt the Ford version.

    Oh yeah, even though it's all aluminum the ZF 6 speed is rated for 19,500 GCWR...

    Rene
     
  11. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Mechanical clutch is something you'll probably regret going with especially after doing all that work. Even when it works like it should, it seems to be a cobbled together, second rate, leg breaker. I had the mech linkage for 8 years and it was always one of those things I hated about my truck. Now I have a clutch i can depress with my hand easily...which should make the occasional foray into rush hour a lot more bearable.

    Rene
     
  12. ryoken

    ryoken Puppy Fabricator Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Hmmm... Thanks... I'll have to take a peek under my bosses Super Duty, it's got the ZF... Just to see how monsterous it is...
     
  13. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    So you'd recommend the hydraulic clutch then. Ok is there a one stop shopping i can get the above adapter and parts? Did the NV4500 or the NV3500 come stock in any vehicle or it is an aftermarket transmission altogether? Thanks for all the help BTW
     
  14. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    The NV5600 will bolt up to the 205 found behind a Dodge Getrag. The bellhousing end looks like a probem for GM engine.
    [​IMG]

    There's also a few close-ratio 4spds.... BorgWarner (Ford, IH, Jeep?) and a Dodge np445.
     
  15. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Clutch stuff you can get pretty much anywhere. I got mine through Jeg's.

    Bell and clutch slave adaptor...Advance Adaptors

    Clutch slave, master and line...local parts store

    Pedal hanger and stuff...used is the only option I'm aware of.

    The tranny itself, again you're looking at used unless you have a fairly liberal budget. You can get them over the counter through any GM dealer. Used there are a few differences. Early GM, late GM and Dodge...you want the GM version.

    Early GM used a deeper granny gear...6.34:1
    Later GM used a 5.61:1 first gear.

    Early GM used a two piece countershaft which isn't as strong as the one piece counter shaft in the '95 and newer versions. Some GM versions have a torsional damper on the rear of the mainshaft.

    [​IMG]

    I personally like this as it isolates the 5th gear from the mainshaft nut. A lot of NV4500's that have been worked hard have the nut loosen as the gear frets on the shaft...the torsional damper sits between the gear and the nut providing a bit of insurance against that happening.

    The never NV4500's used an internal slave assembly for clutch release. This is good as far as not having clearance issues with the front driveline, but not so good if the slave needs replacing. The earlier factory bellhousings put the external slave on the passenger side directly above the front driveline. If your truck is kinda flexy the driveline may hit the slave assembly. This is why I chose an Advance Adaptors Bellhousing.

    Here you can see the drivers side release fork...

    [​IMG]

    Rene
     
  16. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    I guess we're all missing the obvious info for you. The Getrag/NV3500 was the 5 speed used in the '88 and newer GM pick-ups. They're pretty similar tranny's, all aluminum with an integral bellhousing. First gear is not a granny gear, so it's more like a car 5 speed than the NV4500.

    The NV4500 was first used in '92 and all the way up to '99 or 2000 I think...in the GM 3/4 and 1 ton pick-ups.

    Another option you might consider is the A-833 4 speed which came in our trucks. It's a 4 speed without a granny gear, but 4th is an overdrive. Not the beefiest, but it would get you an overdrive.

    Rene
     
  17. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    Yeah i could handle a A-833. Since it came in our trucks the swap would be a little less pain stakeing and fairly inexpensive. Are the ratios about the same as the 700r4 or better? I'll start looking then thanks a lot guys i'll let you know how it goes.
     
  18. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Still looking for info, but it looks like the A-833 was offered from '81-86.

    Ratio's i've been able to dig up look similar to the 700R-4

    3.09 1.67 1.00 0.73

    I'll post up again if I find better info.

    rene
     
  19. dalynchmob

    dalynchmob Registered Member

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    I've been doing some home work. Did the nv3500 come in stock 94-01 dodge ram 1500s?
     
  20. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Not sure on the dodge, but it was the 5 speed in the GM trucks. If you're swapping into a GM you definitely want the GM version...those tranny's have an integral bellhousing.

    Rene
     

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