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6.2L/6.5L diesel + the new diesel fuel = ???

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by AJMBLAZER, Sep 30, 2006.

  1. AJMBLAZER

    AJMBLAZER Better to be lucky than good. Premium Member

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    I'd post this in the diesel forum but I can't anymore...so...

    Anybody know what the new diesel fuel that's out now does to the 6.2L or 6.5L diesels? Anybody used it?

    Looking to sell my Ranger for something with a bit more oomph for towing/hauling but I don't need (and can't afford) a Cummins, Duramax, or International and their associated truck. An older CUCV or diesel GM would suit my needs just fine...and fit in my pathetically low and short garage.:crazy: However if the new diesel fuel is going to be a problem I'd prefer to find that out now rather than after I've found one and gotten all excited.
     
  2. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    The new diesel fuel shouldn't be a problem in older diesels as long as you use a good fuel additive to add lubricity to the fuel. All the additive manufacturers are revamping there additives for use with ULSD. I know Amsoil and Power Service have already released there new blend of additive for ULSD.

    With a diesel in Michigan you should be using additive during the winter anyway now you just use it all year round. No big deal.

    Harley
     
  3. stoney126

    stoney126 1/2 ton status

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    do you use it every fill up? Like a can for 20 gallons and such?
     
  4. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    I am not up totally on the 6.2 & 6.5's IP's but if they don't have any common failure problems due to lack of lubricity like my Dodge's do (VP44) then I would just use the recommended mix from the manufacturer. Amsoils additive is 16oz/80 gallons, Power Service is 128oz/300 gallons, etc. It is all based on how the manufacturer recommends.

    In the winter if it gets cold where you are then it doesn't hurt to over mix the additive a little. Extra additive won't hurt anything but if you don't use enough and it gets real cold diesel fuel will jell up. That is no fun.

    In my dodge because of the common lube issues of the VP44 I use 16-32oz of Non-detergent 30w motor oil along with 4oz of Stanadyne additive for my 30 gallon fillup for summer use. In the winter I will add more additive. I am using Stanadyne currently but will soon be trying the Amsoil additive now that I am a dealer. Stanadyne has worked well for me sofar and alot of people swear by Powerservice & Howes additives also. I use additive and oil every fillup.

    Just make sure during the winter you use a additive designed to lower the jell point of the fuel and make sure you use enough for your conditions. If you live in North Dakota, Canada, etc then use more then you would if you lived in Arizona.

    Harley
     
  5. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    We got some ULSD at work - I think the foreman bought from Petro-Canada that day. :thinking: Anyway - it doesn't smell like diesel! I almost gassed up the forklift with diesel by mistake. Its got the right sheen and slipperyness still.

    I will be running an additive again when my current fuel supplier (Husky/Mohawk) switches over.
     
  6. jdemaris

    jdemaris Registered Member

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    The rotary-type DB2 pumps as used by GM and older Ford IH engines are particularly prone to damage by low-lube fuel. There ARE Federal standards on the new 2007 fuel for lubricostiy - but I don't trust them to be enforced. The company that makes the pumps - Stanadyne/Roosamaster states that a fuel additive it needed - unless the pumps have been updated with some very special and high-priced internal parts. I've rebuilt a few pumps with those parts - they are classified as "Artic Rated" because, in extreme-cold Artic areas - the fuel is extremely thin.
    These same basic pumps - as used by GM and Ford are also used in all kinds of ag. and industrial equipent since the late 50s-early 60s. I know people that have used for an additive - used motor oil, two-stroke oil, AT fluid etc. along with the name-brand stuff e.g. Power Service, Ammsoil, etc. I've heard of no problems with any of them - but . . . some "home remedies" will add an illegal color to the fuel - which might cause you tax-evasion problems if ever checked on the road.
    Generally speaking - if you're going to drive a diesel anytime the temp is below 20 degrees F - you need an anti-gel additive also. Yes, the modern pump mixes are usually winter-rated to sub-zero - but again - I don't trust them. I've been using Power Service for years and I've used my 6.2s GMs and Ford/IH 6.9 and 7.3s at minus 25 degrees and have had no fuel problems.
     
  7. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Uhh ... for us dumb types who mostly drives gassers... WHAT new diesel fuel would this be? :confused:

    Guess I gotta start buying some additive for my CUCV?

    -- A
     
  8. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    The new fuel fuel acts the same in every diesel, regardless of year or make. Biggest issue is lubricity, lesser known but very important will be bacteria, fungus and yeast growth. ( sulfur took care of that too).. Also, the ULSD fuel is really a more volatile #1 fuel. ( #2 refined into a #1 ) so your mileage will go down, and you could see hot start problems. They can't make a high cetane ULSD either, so you're stuck with the federal minimum cetane or below..

    Your over the counter lubricity additives like howes, stanandayne, amsoil etc, are just petroleum waste products in pretty bottles.. good for making carbon, and gooey buildup on your pistons because they they don't like combustion temps..

    complicating the lubricity discussion:

    there has never been a standard for lubricity, so these products have never had to meet any protection requirements.. the ASTM tests that have been devised for lubricity have been viewed by the petroleum industry as being unreliable and inconclusive, so therefore the ASTM never issued a standard..

    Now, engine manufacturers association has declared a minimum standard for lubricity, BUT, it's just an arbitrary number.. The EMA declares a number, the biodiesel folks say they meet it, ( which is why I feel it happened, now they can make people feel good about using it) but the tests haven't changed, so what have they accomplished?

    Any petroleum waste product or biodiesel looks good in a controlled lab setting where you try to scuff ball bearings together, but until you apply heat, real pressure and 4000+ degree combustion temps, that's not real world..

    But, since OEM warranties don't cover damage due to fuel systems caused by any fuel, cat, cummins, etc don't care anyway - they make their money on rebuilds and replacements.and the petroleum companies have their own standards to meet, and aren't responsible for your engine, so they don't care either..

    If you're concerned enough to do something, PM me.

    Tom
     
  9. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    Sulfur is being drastically reduced in diesel fuel ( known as ULSD, or "green diesel fuel") in order for the 2007 diesel engines' emissions equipment to operate without damage.

    The gov't has a big push on ( called EPA phase III) to reduce PM and NOx emissions from diesels.. the fuel itself doesn't accomplish this, but the PM filters and oxidation catalysts do, and the sulfur will pollute and ruin these devices.

    As of June 6th, 2006, refineries can only produce a diesel fuel of 6 - 8 ppm sulfur max, or face shut down by the EPA. Not everyone knows this.

    October 15th, 2006, is the date that retail diesel pumps are mandated to have 15ppm diesel available for purchase. ( for on road applications).

    Refineries can't afford to make different sulfur levels per application ( on or off road), so everyone will get the same stuff. ULSD will be required for off road, marine, and locomotives soon enough, so that's why the super low limit at the refineries is being enforced now.

    What's happening is that sulfur is being picked up as the fuel travels through pipelines, so the exact sulfur content at a given point on the distribution chain is anybody's guess.. the sulfur content is measured, and the fuel is distributed accordingly - high sulfur goes to off road, anything close to 15ppm goes to retail, etc..

    So now you know..

    Tom
     
  10. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    I have heard that ATF can cause damage to injection pump parts and is not a good additive to use. If you want to just add a lube to your fuel you can use non-detergent 30w motor oil or 2 stroke ashless TCW-3 rated oil. I have been using 30w motor oil for the last 15,000 miles with no problems sofar.

    For low temps (below freezing) you should be using an anti-gel additive like mentioned above. Many stations in colder areas will carry the "winter fuel" Diesel #1 & Diesel #2 mix which is good to a lower temperature. At stations that don't get much traffic or at the beginning of the cold season many stations will still have straight #2 which will gel up at low temps without the anti-gel additive. Even if they say they have winter fuel make sure that you use an additive just to be safe. Don't trust others when it is easy enough to do it right and trust yourself.

    Harley
     
  11. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Well, I'm in CA at sealevel, so no serious winter cold.

    How much 30w or 2-cycle oil per tank do I wanna add? I *really* don't wanna be rebuilding my 6.2 nor its IP, so I figger I should treat it well :D

    -- A
     
  12. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    I add 1 oz per gallon. So for a full fillup in my Dodge (30-32gal) I use a full quart of ND30w. People do say that the ND30 will leave some ash residue when it burns but I also run the additive that cleans injectors. During the warmer times I use about 4oz of additive along with the 30w for 30 gallons of fuel.

    Harley
     
  13. dremu

    dremu Officious Thread Derailer Premium Member

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    Sweet; thanks!

    -- A
     
  14. miniwally

    miniwally 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    For all of those that arn't running additive you should but don't have to.

    As far as the fuel gelling deal. Gas stations have their fuel mixed to avoid gelling. #1 diesel is mixed in with #2 to lower the Gel point.
    I just found out that this is up to the individual stations to decide what mixture to run. So the fuel you get today is not the same as the fuel you get in January.
    Those that live in warm climates shouldn't need to worry about treating for gelling. Thows that live in the cold climates should not need to worry about gelling because of the blended fuel. I still think that treating with a good anti gel treatment is a good idea.
    As far as treating for lubricity, you should be fine as the producers are supposed to add their own treatment to make the fuel have better lubrication properties. Once i even heard that the ULSD would be better than the old school high sulfer diesel fuels. Like has been said if you own a truck with pump issues already then you should step up the lubricity.

    The extent of treating that Harley does is something I don't so but i have a new D-Max. I do treat with 4 OZ of stanadyne every tank.

    If you are traveling from warm to cold make sure to treat your fuel cause it will gel. We have a few pieces of Equipment that we have to remember to get treatment into starting now because they sit so much and usually have summer diesel fuel in them. We have gelling problems in our company every year at the begining of the season because of this.
     
  15. twodollars

    twodollars Registered Member

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    The new ULSD will have less lubricating ability than the current fuel, and the Stanadye rotary pumps are sensitive to it. Your best be for protection is to use a name brand product, in the reccomended dosage. Our shop uses both the Stanadyne products, which tend to be a little more pricey, and one I prefer called Diesel Aid. The Diesel Aid is nice, as it comes in one of those bottles that you can squeeze into a small fill chamber to premeasure what you use. Stanadyne claims that their pumps will not be affected by the new fuels, but at the same time they are reformulating their lubricity products for the new ULSD fuel.
     
  16. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    The 1oz per gallon of ND30w I use is probably a little excessive but I figure it can't hurt anything. I have the VP44 pump on my Dodge which has been known for quite awhile to have lube issues so the ND30w is just to help it survive longer. I figure I get about 7500 miles out of 1 case of oil. $25 buck for a case of oil for 7500 miles is fine by me. Hell with the price of diesel were it is and was $20 isn't squat to prolong the live of the IP.

    I am adding about $0.05 per gallon onto the price of my fuel to help make sure a $2000 part & labor item happens later then sooner.

    Harley
     
  17. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    2 other choices..

    Many of the "big rig" truck parts stores in my area are selling Marvel Mystery Oil for a low sulfer additive,or "Howes Lubricator" ...I've used both,and also some "Power Kleen" anti-gel stuff that seems to work well..I can feel a bit of power increase while running the additives...:crazy:
     
  18. AJMBLAZER

    AJMBLAZER Better to be lucky than good. Premium Member

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    So I am buying a CUCV in Wisconsin next Friday and driving it across Michigan's Upper Peninsula and then down state to where I live. To put it mildly the UP isn't all that urbanized. I plan on filling it up with diesel every time I see a pump because gas stations are few and far between on some stretches of the trip...if they have diesel is a toss up...

    What common additives or non-detergent oil should I look for?

    Any particular brands? I'm talking stuff you could easily find in your average back woods NAPA, AutoValue, CarQuest, Advanced Auto, AutoZone, etc. Doubt I'll run across many diesel specialty shops on the trip.
     
  19. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    I use the Kleen-Flo additive. They seem to carry it everywhere... including Navistar dealers and my local Princess Auto (Harbour Freight clone).

    Anything that claims to improve diesel fuel lubricity is better than nothing at all.
     
  20. AJMBLAZER

    AJMBLAZER Better to be lucky than good. Premium Member

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    Cool, I'll keep an eye out for that stuff. Anybody else?

    Good seeing you still around u2slow.:cool1:
     

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