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9/11 contriversy

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by muddin4fun, Mar 6, 2002.

  1. muddin4fun

    muddin4fun 3/4 ton status

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    to show, or not to <a target="_blank" href=http://www.dallasnews.com/entertainment/stories/030602dnentattacktv.c18c4.html>show</a>

    Your opinion?
     
  2. mudhog

    mudhog THEGAME Staff Member Super Moderator

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    link takes me to a sign in page
     
  3. Capman2k

    Capman2k 3/4 ton status

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    yea me too.. maybe you can just post the article if it's not huge?
     
  4. muddin4fun

    muddin4fun 3/4 ton status

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    figures *rolls eyes*

    Here's the text:




    '9/11' footage intense
    Some say pain too fresh for Sunday's airing of French documentary

    03/06/2002

    By MANUEL MENDOZA / The Dallas Morning News

    As the World Trade Center towers fell, French filmmakers Jules and Gedeon Naudet each believed the other was dead.

    But the brothers – who had last been together at a nearby firehouse making a documentary – kept on shooting, one escaping the collapse of the north tower, the other filming victims outside the south tower.


    "You have to understand, it was a way for us not to go completely crazy and hysterical," Gedeon, 31, said Tuesday during the Naudets' first in-depth interview since selling their film to CBS, which will air it Sunday at 8 p.m. on Channel 11. "In order to think clearly and not to panic, we kept the camera rolling."

    What they captured has stirred controversy among some victims' families and others who believe the two-hour, commercial-free film will further traumatize them and the public.

    Called 9/11, it contains never-before-seen footage inside the first tower's lobby immediately after it was hit. It also follows the aftermath of the towers' collapse, when debris flooded their lobbies and the surrounding streets.

    The film is introduced by Robert De Niro, whose production company is located in the ground zero neighborhood.

    "While it is intensely dramatic, it is not exploitative, and there is no gruesome or graphic picture – that's one of the most important things we're trying to get out," said 48 Hours executive producer Susan Zirinsky, who worked on the film with the Naudets. "There isn't a frame that we can't put on television. ... Their focus was the determination and the incredible heroics of the men being tested."

    In fact, Ms. Zirinsky said during Tuesday's teleconference with TV critics, the most startling aspect of 9/11 is the sound, mostly of victims crashing into the Trade Center's glass-and-metal awning. Although some of it was edited out, she felt that a portion had to be included.

    "Because you don't see it, you need to know the reality existed," she said. "Believe me, we edited quite a lot because to have that incredible crush of sound every 20, 30 seconds would have been very difficult for the audience. So we leave some of it, and we explain it, and we talk about its relevance. ... If this is a living piece of history, to sanitize it would have been a mistake."

    The film also contains vulgar language, which CBS decided not to bleep.

    "We did take an enormous amount out," Ms. Zirinsky said. "But the reality is, the language is rough, but so were the circumstances."

    Unmatched access


    The Naudets had unmatched access to the area during and after the attack because they had been making a documentary since June about the rookie firefighters of nearby Engine Company 7 and Ladder Company 1.
    9/11 stays with that premise, opening with about 15 minutes of life in the firehouse among the "probies," new firefighters fresh from the academy. The last section returns to them in the aftermath of Sept. 11.

    In between, there is 54 minutes of footage, some of it shot by Jules inside the north tower and outside as he escaped its collapse. Only Jules' shot of the plane crashing into the tower – apparently caught by no one else – has aired before.

    The 28-year-old's tale is harrowing.

    He had gone out on a gas-odor call about 10 blocks from the World Trade Center when he heard the roar of the first plane. Looking up, he had the presence of mind to photograph it. He then got back in the battalion chief's car, and they headed to the north tower.

    "The scene was quite surprising," Jules recalled Tuesday. "All the windows in the lobby had been blown out. I remember as I entered, I glanced to my right and noticed that people were burning and decided right there it was not something to show or to film. For the rest of the day, I never filmed anything graphic in that sense."

    A little later, after another roar signaled the collapse of the south tower, Chief Joseph Pfeifer ordered the evacuation of the north tower. Jules ran from the lobby through a connecting hallway into 6 World Trade Center next door.

    It took him several minutes to find his way outside. After he started walking on West Street toward the command post, the north tower fell, sending a cloud of debris in his path.

    "We had time to run a quarter of a block and hide behind a car, and waited for what I thought was death," Jules said. Instead, the chief jumped on top of Jules, shielding him from the debris.

    "The most enduring image is when ... [the north tower] collapses and Jules is running with Chief Pfeifer. They're running for their lives," said Betsy West, the CBS executive in charge of the production. "It's an extraordinary moment.

    "The camera keeps rolling and rolling as the dust turns into dark, and it keeps rolling until suddenly you hear everybody saying, 'Are you OK?' Jules wipes the dust off the camera lens, and he realizes he's alive. That's momentous."

    But Jules thought Gedeon was probably inside one of the towers. Gedeon believed the same thing about Jules.

    Unbeknown to Jules, Gedeon had initially stayed behind in the firehouse after the north tower was attacked. A few minutes later, Gedeon took off in a pickup truck with firefighters who had just gotten to the station, arriving at the Trade Center in time to film the second plane hitting the south tower.

    It wasn't until 1:30 that afternoon that Jules made it back to the firehouse, where he was reunited with his brother. "I couldn't believe he was alive," Gedeon said.

    CBS is airing the film almost exactly six months after the attack, which some victims' families have objected to.

    "It will be another nail in a coffin I don't have," Barbara Minervino told The Associated Press. Her husband, Louis, is still missing.

    The network took on the project with "amazing respect," Ms. Zirinsky countered Tuesday. Despite the opposition, she believes that now is the right time to air the film.

    "We can't forget what drove this country to be at war, which we are in right now. It is important not to forget what happened," she said.

    The Naudets said they received numerous offers for the footage, some for millions of dollars. CBS reportedly paid about $1 million for the film, though the network declined to confirm the figure Tuesday.

    They went with CBS, they said, because the network agreed not to exploit the footage and to let them make the film their way – as a tribute to the firefighters.

    After expenses, the brothers will donate the rest of their fee to a scholarship fund for firefighters' children. CBS also will make a contribution to the fund. Network executives said they didn't know whether CBS would turn a profit on the film.

    The telecommunications company Nextel is sponsoring the program but will show public-service announcements instead of commercials. They total only 7 minutes and 30 seconds of the two hours.
     
  5. mudhog

    mudhog THEGAME Staff Member Super Moderator

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    damn that is a hard one one part of me wants to watch it and another does not want to watch it
     
  6. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    They should not air it. Why the does it need to air?? What will be gained by showing other peoples pain? Can anyone tell me that something good can come from watching others tormented?? Who hasn't had thier heart twisted into a knot a thousand times already over this?? Who doesn't know already that it was the worst day in the history of the US?? There was a thread on this board about how to deal with our kids and all the footage that they kept seeing on the TV around 9/11. If our kids are suffering negative affects from watching the clips they showed in the news, what will this showing do to our subconscious???


    I want to share a story.

    At an award ceremony in NYC a few weeks ago, several of the NYC news agencies edited together a short montage of 9/11 footage. It was short because the producers of the ceremony turned it off 5 minutes into it. This wasn't a public performance, this was a private, broadcast industry ceremony, and they deemed it too graphic and intense to finish showing. The news agency all thought they did a great job on it and it "needed to be seen", but the rest of the audience that wasn't a news person, got sick over it.

    I don't want to see it. If it airs, I won't be watching it.
     
  7. Capman2k

    Capman2k 3/4 ton status

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    I would watch it, but I'm working when it's on...
     
  8. blazen91

    blazen91 1/2 ton status

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    This isn't Mike, its his wife. I don't think its necessary to air this show either. Maybe to some people it would be interesting, or maybe even educational, but we have all seen the tower get hit, we have all seen the towers fall, we all know what happened, we all know how many people are dead and missing. Mike and myself lost friends in the devastation, we know what happened. I'm not sure that I want to see what my friends final moments were like. Its hard enough to deal with the fact that thousands were murdered that day without physically seeing what they went through in their final moments. Not to sound gross, but would you want to see a murder victim's final moments caught on film in a CBS exclusive? I don't. In my humble opinion this is just a ratings plot, nothing else.

    This is Mike, I agree with my wife.
     
  9. AGM73k5

    AGM73k5 1/2 ton status

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    Maybe people who don't want to watch it should watch a different show? Sorry if that was in the text and I missed it.

    -Aaron
     
  10. EDdaTREE

    EDdaTREE 1/2 ton status

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    I think its on a case by case basis. So many people are just still trying to get their minds around this thing.We are living in a nation of educated people. I myself, could not stand to watch this. My imagination enough, terrifies me. It sickens me that innocent Americans should die.
     
  11. muddin4fun

    muddin4fun 3/4 ton status

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    I would want to watch it. I'm sure it will hurt inside, but for me, I need to understand what it was like for the people who went thru it. Yes, it's horrible. But I would like to watch it to have a better understanding. This may be a little harsh, but nobody is forcing people who don't want to see it to watch it. They can change the channel.
    If it looks to me like the station is just showing it for ratings, then I'll turn it off. But for me, I really need to get some sort of idea of what folks in NY went thru.
     
  12. Ddragggon

    Ddragggon 1/2 ton status

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    <font color=red>&lt;WARNING&gt;</font color=red> this RANT contains <font color=orange>UNPOPULAR OPINIONS,</font color=orange> and a Graphic story about my bro and his fiance Vs WTC building colapse. if you MIGHT be offended by it, DON'T READ IT, and if you do read it, DON'T complain to me about it. in the words of Anthrax (the band), <font color=blue>`if something offends you, don't buy it, don't read it, and don't say your opinions right' </font color=blue>

    I will either watch it, or tape it if I'm preocupied. the media edited out so much stuff that actually happened, its obscene. all those bullshat stories about `so and so rode teh 86th floor down to saftey' and `we found people trapped under the rubble with cel phones, and dogs' all of these stories were false, and circulated by the media to try and cushion the impact of the whole matter. every other country showed the raw un edited footage, without the candy coating, or extreme censorshit we had here... I see that as more then Irony, the land of the free censoring everything to a level that couldn't possibly offend anyone, and yet there's people who somehow got offended at the news coverage of the whole thing. movies were canned, music was black listed, commercials were cut out, and any mention of the whole thing elicted either blind rage, or explosive crying. perhaps I'm calous, or even a black hearted bastard, but I'm sick and tired of everyone pussyfooting around the bleedinghearted pansies, who will undoubtibly bitch about CBS playing this, as tho they didn't have the ability to CHANGE THE CHANNEL, or go for a walk, or surf the net, or anything.

    before anyone rants about `oh, you';re such a jerk, and you don't knwo anything, cause you're sitting safe in AZ, and nothing could have affected you' please note that durring this time, my Brother and his Fiance lived in NYC. when they first moved there, they lived about 1 mile from the trade center... I didn't know they'd moved to Staten Island, and was somewhat anxious. even after I learned they'd moved to staten Island, I realized it was still too soon to be relieved: both my brother, and his fiance went past the WTC on thier way to thier respective jobs. my bro had even walked past the WTC between his bus, and his Subway, and his fiance would have been on a subway under the damn thing if she hand't randomly decided to try and take a different route to work that day. so instead of potentialy being crushed to death by a pair of huge buildings, she was trapped on a bus, watching mortified as people lept to thier deaths from the building. when she finaly got out of the bus, it was to the colapse of the first building, with her running for her life, as pieces of building, and bodies fell all around her.

    -Rich
     
  13. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    You are blind, un/misinformed, and naive. For every "so and so rode down from the 86th floor" there was video of people jumping, or a story of being killed by a blast of glass from an adjacent or nearby building.

    Where do you get information on what other countries are showing? How do you know they edited out so much it's obscene? Zirinksy said "there's not a frame we can't show on television".

    Not to condescend or anything, but you should think more thoroughly before posting what first comes to mind. I for one, am so irritated, I just spent 30 minutes typing an extremely thorough reply to you, which I have now reduced to this, with a few minutes to chill out before hitting submit. If your post was more than an uninformed blurt, it might warrant the end-all "Dont' respond if you're offended" or whatever you said.

    If they show this, why hold back and not show the murder video of the WSJ reporter?
     
  14. Capman2k

    Capman2k 3/4 ton status

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    They finally decided that guy is dead??
     
  15. Ddragggon

    Ddragggon 1/2 ton status

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Newyorkin added:You are blind, un/misinformed, and naive. For every "so and so rode down from the 86th floor" there was video of people jumping, or a story of being killed by a blast of glass from an adjacent or nearby building.

    <hr></blockquote>
    where did I get my misinformation? from foriegn news services, and other sites. the frencie camera men in this series may not have photographed peopel diving out of buildings, or people impacted with the ground in giant splat marks, but many of the news services did, and chose not to show them in america.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Where do you get information on what other countries are showing? How do you know they edited out so much it's obscene? Zirinksy said "there's not a frame we can't show on television".

    Not to condescend or anything, but you should think more thoroughly before posting what first comes to mind. I for one, am so irritated, I just spent 30 minutes typing an extremely thorough reply to you, which I have now reduced to this, with a few minutes to chill out before hitting submit. If your post was more than an uninformed blurt, it might warrant the end-all "Dont' respond if you're offended" or whatever you said.


    <hr></blockquote>
    perhaps I should have paused for another 20 minutes before I posted my `line of tripe' but I didn't, and I even worked up a sizable <font color=red>multi</font color=red><font color=green>colored</font color=green> <font color=orange>Warning</font color=orange> to ward people who might get offended by my calousness away from it. as for uninformed blip, see above...

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    If they show this, why hold back and not show the murder video of the WSJ reporter?


    <hr></blockquote>
    if they wanted to, they could, but they don't want to deal with the sheer number of bleeding hearted bastards who'll swamp thier mailboxes, and phonelines with pure rage, and hatemail at having watched something so traumatic, even tho they could have changed the damn channel. anytime something controversial comes on, the VERY FIRST THING they show is a giant black screen with bold white text on it that says `warning, this is shocking, and could hurt your brain/traumatize you. Don't watch it' yet billions of people watch it anyway, and then whip out thier good ol' internet, and send hate mails, to the stations that had the guts to show something with controversy in it.

    the general public is an unthinking mass of confusion, hysteria, and self riteousness, believing its thier right to never have someone with a contrary opinion say anything to them/about them/aobut thier beliefs/about thier own opinions. generaly on a singular basis, people are smart, intuitive, and have thier own opinions, that is higher then the mob mentality of the general public.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    You are blind, un/misinformed, and naive.

    <hr></blockquote>
    am I blind, missinformed, and naive? perhaps, but thats also the battle cry of religous zelots as they fly into battle, thier swords held high in the name of god. to sum it up, who are you to judge me blind/stupid? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif this is an opinion, not etched in stone stated fact, and as in the case of this post, posted without emotions, anger, malice, joy, or spite. the previous post prolly contained anger, but thats wholy because I'm pissed off by the general publics consensus that no one anywhere should ever be alowed to hurt them in thier tin-foil world, of make believe, or get inside thier giant sheltered from reality buble of illogical thinking.

    -Rich

    PS, I thought this one thorugh, and wussyified my main points, to hopefully keep another barrage of anti-me-isim from shooting up... :-P
     
  16. Burbinator

    Burbinator 1/2 ton status

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    You're such a jerk...j/k /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

    I agree with you 100%. I am sick of all of the whining "poor me" people in this country that could focus the efforts of bitching into a more positive use of energy...like changing the channel, putting the magazine down or not listening. Instead they want someone else to "save" them from the evils of the world. Spare me...damn!
    This does not mean that I am insensitive about WTC or anything else for matter. If any country on this Earth should NOT have censored anything from 09/11, it was the U.S. I understand the need for closure, but we should as a country NEVER forget what happened to us on that fateful day.

    <font color=red>IMO!</font color=red>

    Let the arrows fly...
     
  17. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    That's an interesting point of view, yet you both took the time to respond to this thread with essentially "if you don't like it, don't respond".

    The trouble with that flawed thinking is that there are young people that can be influenced, Rich's glob of dumb people that suddenly turn smart when they're alone, etc, and don't know any better than to leave the channel on. There are things that you see that you don't know you didn't want to see until you saw them. There are situations where you are physically unable to escape the presentation (tv in a bar, radio in a deli, screen on macy's on the corner of 34th and 7th, times square advertisements, hopefully, you get the point by now).

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I am sick of all of the whining "poor me" people in this country that could focus the efforts of bitching into a more positive use of energy...like changing the channel, putting the magazine down or not listening. Instead they want someone else to "save" them from the evils of the world. Spare me...damn

    <hr></blockquote>

    Who's whining poor me over our nations weakest day?? Are you paying any attention or just assuming you know people are whining somewhere?? If anything, this showing is a lament of "poor us"! Who's saying save anyone?? You're blatently missing the point. I'd say blindly, but that's apparently a religious term. My point here is that we don't need to find new ways to rehash what we've been through, especially not for the sake of a nextel sponsorship.

    You're assuming that it's fact that the US has intentionally censored anything we've seen on this. I saw no links to any foriegn news agency in the "foriegn countries show more than we did" claim. I saw hearsay. By the very fact that someone had a tape with supposed unseen images and sold it to a corporation, I would say any censorship is a result of that individual.

    I understand how someone in new mexico might want to watch this to see what victims went through, but the blood and gore post and 100% support leads me to wonder if it's not just a movie to kick back and catch with some popcorn to some people, which is why I disagree with airing it. Seeing someone you know splattered becomes no big deal, less if you didn't know them.

    How is video of someone landing on a glass awning heroic? How is that something to help us "as a country to never forget"? We have a gaping hole where there was a world famous icon of america.

    This is CBS's way around making a tv movie out of our nations darkest hour.

    Call me what you will, pansy or bleeding heart seems to be popular, but I'd bet you'll be among Rich's mindless glob of people that will stare at this and say "what a damn shame" at the end. I have no interest in your opinion of me.

    Edited to change mispunctuation that misconveyed a thought.
     
  18. Burbinator

    Burbinator 1/2 ton status

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    I won't even justify that with a response...

    My intent was not to spawn a debate, rather it was to state my OPINION. You are more than welcome to disagree. Perhaps you should pay attention to the fact that my response was to a specific person. Your warping of the context of that response is unfortunate.

    But...for the record...liberals will be our demise.

    End of discussion
     
  19. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    pissed off by the general publics consensus that no one anywhere should ever be alowed to hurt them in thier tin-foil world, of make believe, or get inside thier giant sheltered from reality buble of illogical thinking

    <hr></blockquote>

    Are you a mindless sheep yourself? Do you recall the post awhile back about how "I want my kid to be made fun of. I want my kid to fall down and get hurt"?? The point of that was to toughen and teach the kid, not derive pleasure from their pain. Do you have so many rocks in your head that you actually think the above quote is how someone that doesn't agree with you thinks??


    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    or people impacted with the ground in giant splat marks, but many of the news services did, and chose not to show them in america.

    <hr></blockquote>
    Again, you know this because...?
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    perhaps I should have paused for another 20 minutes before I posted my `line of tripe' but I didn't, and I even worked up a sizable multicolored Warning

    <hr></blockquote>
    See "blind". The point of of waiting was to actually put some thought into what you were saying.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    if they wanted to, they could, but they don't want to deal with the sheer number of bleeding hearted bastards who'll swamp thier mailboxes, and phonelines with pure rage, and hatemail at having watched something so traumatic, even tho they could have changed the damn channel

    <hr></blockquote>
    And I guess CBS WANTS to deal with the similar fallout they're getting over this issue, right? The option to just "change the channel". I pay for cable or rent from blockbuster to get gruesome content. Public TV doesn't need to air it. Am I complaining about gory or tasteless movies that are available on cable or blockbuster? No.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    the general public is an unthinking mass of confusion, hysteria, and self riteousness, believing its thier right to never have someone with a contrary opinion say anything to them/about them/aobut thier beliefs/about thier own opinions. generaly on a singular basis, people are smart, intuitive, and have thier own opinions, that is higher then the mob mentality of the general public.

    <hr></blockquote>
    What? Ummm, America is kinda filled with differing opinions. If you're referring to a crowd I more understand what you mean. If you mean in general that Americans are spoon fed into oblivion by the media, then sure, I agree with you. But wouldn't that counter your point? As individuals they're generally smart? Maybe, but that becomes case by case, and what about the other ones? Smart people can be spoon fed by the media too. This is dramatizing someone else's misery.

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I'm pissed off by the general publics consensus that no one anywhere should ever be alowed to hurt them in thier tin-foil world, of make believe, or get inside thier giant sheltered from reality buble of illogical thinking

    <hr></blockquote>
    A statement like this kinda makes me think you're in a tin-foil bubble yourself, to think that this is the general publics attitude. I think you're misunderstanding the general consensus of society to protect itself. This is not joe calling tom an a**hole, or calling a politician names. That's fine, generally, society shouldn't and doesn't give a rat's tucus. This is exploitation, and it's national. Everyone was affected by 9/11.
    I'm angry that someone/people would like to reopen what is still a sore wound for some people for the sake of money or entertainment.

    Who are you to rant with your convoluted statements about people? You seem to have no idea how people and society actually are.
     
  20. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Let the arrows fly...

    <hr></blockquote>
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    My intent was not to spawn a debate

    <hr></blockquote>
    Whatever.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    You are more than welcome to disagree. Perhaps you should pay attention to the fact that my response was to a specific person. Your warping of the context of that response is unfortunate.


    <hr></blockquote>
    yes, it is unfortunate, please clarify. I beleive I would look like a fool by responding improperly. I don't see what I mistook, and I'm trying to look at it from a different angle. I'm not trying to be argumentive. I would much rather see a positive response than a negative. If I'm mistaking it in a negative light clarify it.
     

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