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A real "HERO" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Goober, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [​IMG]










    This is <font color="orange">Thumper</font>'s avitar and I just thought it fits. I got it off the Northern Lights Off-Road Association website. Great site, Mike!

    It looks like those Canadians have fun in the great white north.
     
  2. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    Goob, could you please remove this.
    Although it is a funny concept, the loss of life that the girl suffered is not funny.
    The act may have not been the smartest (i.e. my response to MJ), but she did lose her life for something she believed which is commendable.
    Either in peace or in war there is going to be needless loss of life, none of it is worth making fun of. Even though we are not at war, there are millions of lives being lost needlessly, hopefully during war (if it occurs), the loss of life will be limited and less "needless", again at any point, it's not worth making fun of in that way.

    Just a thought.
     
  3. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]
    she did lose her life for something she believed which is commendable.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    this is clearly an undefendable blanket statement. Mohammed Atta died for something he believed in too.... wanna commend him? How about Adolf Hitler?

    feeling strongly about something doesnt make that something morally right. I dont seek to make fun of this girl, but at the same time I think she was (most likely unknowingly) a supporter of a movement i consider evil and I refuse to "commend" someone for that.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Even though we are not at war

    [/ QUOTE ]

    not at war? which planet are you on? lol. Our armed forces are engaged (that means fighting) on a daily basis in afghanistan and pakistan in the hunt for osama and his minions. at the same time, the enemy is moving to attack the civilian population again, here in the united states and abroad as well. With respect to Iraq, there was no peace treaty at the end of the 1991 war... there was a ceasefire that was dependant on saddam disarming... he hasnt disarmed, so technically we are still at war with iraq as well. Just how exactly are we NOT at war?!

    j
     
  4. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]
    Goob, could you please remove this.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I would rather not. I see it as a humorous reflection of the absolute stupidity of many of these "peace activists". I'm surprised (and grateful) that more of these folks haven't been killed.


    [ QUOTE ]
    the loss of life that the girl suffered is not funny.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree, her death is not funny. It was the result of her decision to commit suicide by laying down in front of a bulldozer that was clearing minefields.

    In my opinion, if she really wanted to make a difference, she could have made more of an impact by living and protesting and speaking out rather than trying to become a martyr.

    I see no honor in her actions only stupidity.


    [ QUOTE ]
    she did lose her life for something she believed which is commendable.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, it is not.

    On Sept 11 2001, 19 men boarded 4 different aircraft and killed almost 3000 Americans who's only crime was that they woke up that morning.

    These 19 men lost their lives for something they believed in and I see nothing commendable in their actions.




    [ QUOTE ]
    Either in peace or in war there is going to be needless loss of life

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, unfortunately, there will be.

    There will also be people who die as a result of stupid decisions. I believe commiting suicide is a stupid decision regardless of the circumstances. I have little sympathy for anyone who would lay down (figuratively and /or physically) and ALLOW themselves to be killed without putting up a fight. It's hard to stand up for something if you're 6 feet underground.


    [ QUOTE ]
    Even though we are not at war, there are millions of lives being lost needlessly

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, that is a sad fact. I am convinced that if we do nothing to stop people like Sadaam, who HAS killed millions of his own people, more innocent people will be killed.
     
  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    See other post.

    Goob, any loss of life is not funny (even Hitler's).

    I'm sure they have pictures of our soldiers and citizens burning or dead and celebrate and laugh, but it "ain't funny". Look at the reactions of some people when the tower were hit.....they rejoiced!!!

    As for the men that caused the deaths of "innocent" people on 9/11.

    I do commend them. Now let me make damn sure to clarify: I DO NOT believe what they did was right. There were many innocent lives lost.
    The were very much ignorant and mislead (just like many of us). I feel sorry for the ignorant bastards, but if someone else had not pushed their beliefs on them, they would not have committed such a terrible act.

    You may ask how I can say this. Just ask the "innocent" people in the Gulf that were killed by "our men" some of which were even killed in the process. Do you think they commend our soldiers for dyeing for what they believe in....the one's that opposed us being there, No because their beliefs are not the same as our own, but "we" commend them for their bravery and "commitment to freedom".

    Hipocrit comes to mind.


    As far as the war comment.

    Are we at war...Yes there is the war on crime, the war on drugs, even "the war on terrorism"......, but from a legislative standpoint we ARE NOT AT WAR (that is NOT debatable). As it currently stands (maybe even if it's only a few hours more), we are living in "Peacetime". That soon may change, and then I will gladly agree we are at War.

    We can be even less at "war" when War is declared, than we are now, but we are not at War (from a legislative standpoint). I know it's tough to understand, but the law books of Congress will explain it.

    People die everyday from "enemy gunfire" even in times of peace. It is that sad world in which we live. Stand up for what you believe, but make sure of what you believe in.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Yes, that is a sad fact. I am convinced that if we do nothing to stop people like Sadaam, who HAS killed millions of his own people, more innocent people will be killed.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I never said and will never say DO NOTHING. I know that if we do nothing, there will be tons of lives lost at his hand (many of his own people too).
    He has pushed for way too long, now it is time to push back.
     
  6. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]

    I'm sure they have pictures of our soldiers and citizens burning or dead and celebrate and laugh

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Are you comparing this foolish individual to a soldier?

    That would be silly. This person chose to kill herself for her cause. I am merely pointing out the absolute stupidity of it.

    I don't enjoy or find humor in anyone's death but if someone dies as a result of making stupid decisions, I'll point it out to everyone with the hopes that people will take a closer look at the decisions they make that can affect their lives.


    [ QUOTE ]
    As for the men that caused the deaths of "innocent" people on 9/11.

    I do commend them.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Here is Websters definition of commend :

    com·mend :
    To represent as worthy, qualified, or desirable; recommend.
    To express approval of; praise.
    To commit to the care of another; entrust.


    Judging from your previous posts, I'm not sure that "commend" is the word you are looking for.

    If the definition of the word "commend" accurately reflects your true beliefs then we have a serious disagreement.

    [ QUOTE ]
    but if someone else had not pushed their beliefs on them, they would not have committed such a terrible act

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So, are you saying it's our fault? Or are you just pointing out that somebody else pushed their radical beliefs on them?

    Either way, an adult is responsible for their own actions. You can't place blame on anyone else except the individuals who commited the act.


    [ QUOTE ]
    Hipocrit comes to mind.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    I don't know what you mean. Are you trying to call me a hipocrit?


    [ QUOTE ]
    I know it's tough to understand, but the law books of Congress will explain it.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I'm quite clear on what the legislative definition of war is and it appears as though you are pretty clear on it too.

    I'm not clear as to why you feel the need to point this out to me.



    [ QUOTE ]
    He has pushed for way too long, now it is time to push back.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Now, here is something that you and I agree on 100%. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  7. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    I wasn't saying you were a hipocrit (necessarily).
    The fact is we believe in what our soldiers do and commend them for their acts.
    Many believe in what the terrorists did on that day and called them soldiers and commended them for their acts.
    We say they were foolish, they say we are foolish.
    Do all our soldiers fight because THEY want to.......or because they are "serving our country". Many believe they are fighting for what is right, but are they really fighting for what THEY believe is right or what the govt. believes is right (often times it's the same thing). Have they seen what goes on day to day and experienced it firsthand, or are they going by what they see in the news and what Uncle Sam tells them and because they have hatred for what they saw/experienced on 9/11.
    They hop a plane, get a gun, and are sent in blindly. I know that is NOT the way it happens, but many people who engage in combat, have NO firsthand knowledge of the enemy. Is that an "adult", or a child that does what he/she is told by daddy (U. Sam).

    Now again don't take that statement wrong: I believe in what our guys and gals are doing. They are doing what many of us can't, but I know several that are going because they were told to pack and go, not because they were holding a gun and ready to rock. Yes, they could say no, but it would come with penalty (sound familiar). At least in our country it's not punishable by death...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Are you comparing this foolish individual to a soldier?

    [/ QUOTE ] Many of them call our soldiers foolish individuals, but we commend them....

    We have our own beliefs and they do not match what the terrorist believe in, so automatically our perceptions cloud how we think ABOUT THEM. All I'm saying is remove the cloud and see how different the situation can be (not they you have to or will ever agree with their beliefs). You can see where someone is coming from without agreeing with them. Play devil's advocate without misconceptions, it can open eyes. What the govt is doing, may be exactly the right thing, but the way they portray it to the public is sometimes no different than how "propaganda" was pushed on Germany years ago. Don't believe everything you see and hear on TV and in the paper.

    As for websters dictionary: Yes I do commend them for standing up for what they believe in, but I DO NOT commend them for their acts of carrying out their beliefs. Two seperate issues, please don't put them together. I also don't commend them for being ignorant, but that's a whole other issue.

    You can respect somebody for standing up for themselves even if you think they are a complete dumbass.
     
  8. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]
    this is clearly an undefendable blanket statement. Mohammed Atta died for something he believed in too.... wanna commend him? How about Adolf Hitler?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Commend them for forcing their beliefs on others and committing horrendous acts in the process....NO

    Two seperate issues my friend.

    And it is a defendable statement. I commend them for believing in something, but as stated, not for forcing it upon others.

    Beliefs are that, non tangeable items, actions to carry out those beliefs and/or forcing them on others is completely different. One can be had without the other, therefor one can commend one and not the other.
     
  9. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]
    I'm sure they have pictures of our soldiers and citizens burning or dead and celebrate and laugh, but it "ain't funny". Look at the reactions of some people when the tower were hit.....they rejoiced!!!

    As for the men that caused the deaths of "innocent" people on 9/11.

    I do commend them. Now let me make damn sure to clarify: I DO NOT believe what they did was right.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    straight out of the dictionary... "commend":

    1. To represent as worthy, qualified, or desirable; recommend.
    2. To express approval of; praise. See Synonyms at praise.
    3. To commit to the care of another; entrust.

    note that all 3 definitions suggest a positive view of an act ("praise", "entrust", "desireable"). In your response you said "let me clarify"... but I didnt see any kind of clarification in the following remarks that would justify praise for the 9-11 attackers. The example of "do they commend our soldiers" is a terrible example, and clearly so. A counter example is simple enough, post-WWII germany or japan. we absolutely DESTROYED the infrastructure in both countries... killed millions, including the innocent. the amount of damage we did to either nation is easily 100x what we did to the iraqi people in the 1991 gulf war. That said, is there a credible person in germany today that really believes that destroying nazism wasnt the right thing to do? it'll be the same in iraq once we remove saddam. will we kill innocent people? yes. will we save all the innocent people that saddam would kill himself? absolutely, and that number of lives saved IS greater than the lives that would be lost. further, we will be saving iraqi peoples future... just as we did the germans. iraq will prosper, just as germany/japan have.


    [ QUOTE ]
    but if someone else had not pushed their beliefs on them, they would not have committed such a terrible act.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    osama could preach to me 24 hrs a day and I'd still say "f off u piece of crap". dont even try to make these guys seem like victims. they arent. almost all of the hijackers were from middle to upper middle class familys and had good educations. these were not helpless/hopeless lost souls. they were evil men.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Do you think they commend our soldiers for dyeing for what they believe in....the one's that opposed us being there,

    [/ QUOTE ]

    dying for what you believe in isnt commendable... WHAT they believe in may be however. guys like osama or nazis are all about hate and totalitarianism, and there isnt a damn thing "commendable" about that.

    [ QUOTE ]
    No because their beliefs are not the same as our own, but "we" commend them for their bravery and "commitment to freedom".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    moral relativism is VERY shakey ground to stand on... i dont recommend it...

    &gt; Hipocrit comes to mind.

    Im not hypocritical on this matter at all...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Are we at war...Yes there is the war on crime, the war on drugs, even "the war on terrorism"......, but from a legislative standpoint we ARE NOT AT WAR (that is NOT debatable). As it currently stands (maybe even if it's only a few hours more), we are living in "Peacetime".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    war has several definitions. In the most basic and original sense it is merely armed conflict. We are most certainly engaged in that. the enemy is dying... so are some of our men. the official declaration of war is another matter. If the only definition of war you recognize is an officially declared war... well... thats a weird way to look at things. For example, I dont think before the time of nationalism that anyone ever "declared" war... they just did it. does that mean that there was never a war before then? dont think so. In any case, thanks to the war powers act etc, there arent going to be any more declared wars. I doubt there ever will be another us-declared war. I tend to look at it this way... if my brother Marines are somewhere fighting and dying... then we are at war. Has it been declared? no. does that matter to the people dying or still engaged? not at all. At any rate, if you dont like the way I use the word "war"... just mentally substitute "battle" in its place. better?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Stand up for what you believe, but make sure of what you believe in.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    the qualifier is the key there...

    j
     
  10. BranndonC

    BranndonC 3/4 ton status

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    i really like the way you all are handling your conversation, it's civil and not whining but it is well written. rock on!
     
  11. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    i do my best... sometimes i find myself getting a little bombast so I have to restrain myself. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif at any rate, i agree, thoughtful conversation is a terrific thing. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    j
     
  12. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: A real \"HERO\" stops a HMMWV (Hummer)

    [ QUOTE ]
    i do my best... sometimes i find myself getting a little bombast so I have to restrain myself. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif at any rate, i agree, thoughtful conversation is a terrific thing. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    j


    [/ QUOTE ]


    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Keepin' it peaceful is what it's all about /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif

    I think we agree more than the it shows. Many times I cannot convey a message as well in writing as I can verbally.

    As for war vs. conflict and war on many levels, without knowing it, while wanting to disagree, you actually agreed with my statement.

    As for commending someone, you wrote "praise" for an act. Again there were TWO seperate acts. One: Standing up for what you believe (commend) Two: Killing innocent people for what you believe (non-commend). The point again is that you can commend someone and still hate them.....

    You were also correct in that Osamma could preach all day and you would say F-off. The terrorist could have (and should have) done the same. Are they ignorant and stupid....yes, there is no denying that. That is not where I am coming from.....

    Oh well, at worst case, we can agree to disagree /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif
     

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