Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

Alternate (cheap) crossover test run tonite! (link to pics added)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Thumper, Sep 12, 2003.

  1. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Well, just got back from my test run with the setup all done.
    I have to say it works very well.
    Pavement: Very slight amount of bumpsteer, and only feelable when both tires drop into a dip at the same time so the suspension bounces equally on both sides. I dont have a stabilizer on it yet, so I am hoping this will eliminate the rest. Like I said, its very slight.
    Steering radius: It turns a lot sharper than it did both directions. In fact it took me by suprise the first time on the trail that I quickly steered it to avoid a rut. No loss of steering in either direction when its flexxed out.
    Trail: It handled the bumpy rutted trail really well, it steered quickly and sharply. I like it!
    Rocks: fully stuffed into the wells, I still have enough clearance that the cross link wont hit the springs. It hits my bumpstop first when the spring compresses.

    What I did: I had a tie rod from my 85 Jimmy, it was a two piece one with the long end and the real short one joined by the adjusting sleeve. It had a hole in it for a steering stabilizer near the drivers side end. It attached to the knuckles at each end from the bottom so the taper on the knuckle ends were wide at the bottom tapering to the top. When I swapped my diffs to the 3/4 ton version, the flat top knuckles I had were tapered opposite, wide on top, tapering downwards. This allowed me to take the tie rod from my old diff, swap it end for end, and drop the rod ends into the tapered holes from the top... reversing the tie rod, and putting the stabilizer hole at the passenger side end. This was the basis for my crossover idea. I reamed out the stab hole to the 1 1/2" per foot taper required for the GM rod ends. Then I took the tie rod I had left, cut it to length, attached a sleeve to one end with a tie rod end, bent the link into the proper shape, welded in a corner brace, welded a sleeve to the other end (instead of rethreading it) and screwed another tir rod end into the sleeve. I now had a crossover link with a rod end on each end, one fit into the drag link hole and one end was near the steering box. I scooped a Saginaw steering box from a 79 J10 Heep, slipped the sector shaft out of it... it was the same as mine, only with a threaded end and a nut. It also had an arm on it that pointed straight back that was about 7" long. Also, as a bonus, the J10 has D44s... get it? The steering links all use GM size rod ends! So the arm was tapered correctly, but it was straight. So, we took a chance and heated it up and bent it slightly to give me about a 3" drop on it. I know, I know... you are not supposed to be able to bend cast metal. But we had nothing to lose, so we tried it. We used as little heat as we could, bent it slowly, bent it only as much as was needed, and let it air cool totally... it bent fine with no visible signs of stress at the bends. So, I bolted it on to the box shaft, bolted the tie rod end from the crosslink into it, and drove it tonite!

    I think this is a doable mod if you want to save some dollars. And everyone that has looked at it says it looks totally safe and well built. I dont know if the arm would stand up to major abuse like the hardcore guys wheel, but for my purposes, mud, trails, and occasional rocks, it will be perfect!

    I will snap some pictures tomorrow and get them up.

    later
    Mike
    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
    Heres the only pic I got from the trip... more to follow!
    test run!
    Heres the new pics of the setup.
    crossover pics in K5 mod folder
     
  2. leadfoot067

    leadfoot067 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Posts:
    1,563
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    puyallup, washington
    Re: Alternate (cheap) crossover test run tonite!

    i understand what u did here...great idea /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif..my only worry would be the tie rod end that you reemed out for the drag link..i would carry a spare one of those...that part wasnt originally intended to see that much stress....as far as heating the pitman arm and bending it...we do that alot on race cars...never had a problem... kudos for the low buck crossover
     
  3. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Posts:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Marcos, Ca USA
    Re: Alternate (cheap) crossover test run tonite!

    Nice mod- I almost went this route, but the D60 arms are so readily available. I'd be more inclined to take this route on a d44 with no flat top knuckle- much easier!
     
  4. 88K5Jimmy

    88K5Jimmy 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Posts:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tulsa OK
    Re: Alternate (cheap) crossover test run tonite!

    [ QUOTE ]
    Nice mod- I almost went this route, but the D60 arms are so readily available. I'd be more inclined to take this route on a d44 with no flat top knuckle- much easier!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly. The crossover mod on D44 and 10-bolts are very expensive compared to a D60. I was highly intrigued someone else had thought about doing this before and had!!

    Thumper, I know you are working on pics, but can ou get a couple of the bracing and how the draglink attaches to the pitman arm?

    Thanks
    Ross
     
  5. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Link to pics added at the top of this thread!

    Thanks for the replies.

    Mike
     
  6. y5mgisi

    y5mgisi 1 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Posts:
    17,156
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Portland Oregon
    cool /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif I like it. Think this type of crossover would work with the chevy 2wd steering box and lowerd pitman arm?
     
  7. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Well, thats basically what I did.
    Instead of swapping the entire 4wd steering box with the 2wd version, I just swapped the sector shaft from another Saginaw box that happened to be in a Jeep J10 truck. The entire reason for swapping the shaft or box is to get the shaft that is splined all the way around, and has the threaded end with the nut. This way, you can use whatever pitman arm you want. All the other 4wd truck manufacturers use this type of shaft setup, GM is the only one that used the other short tie rod abortion.
    I also used the pitman arm from the Jeep, but bent it for a approx 3" drop. Using the bought Superlift 4" drop arm will work as well Im sure. But my way was cheaper! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    I just wasnt paying what they wanted to charge for those machined, prebuilt arms, links, and pitman arms.

    Mike
     
  8. 88K5Jimmy

    88K5Jimmy 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Posts:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tulsa OK
    Thanks for the pics /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    One question, how did you bend the draglink into shape?

    Thanks
    Ross
     
  9. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    I have one of those little hydraulic benders. Its a bottle jack in a frame with a bunch of different die sizes. I pretty much just estimated the amount and made lots of back and forth trips to the truck to test fit.

    Disclaimer: This is working for me so far, no telling the long term results. If anyone builds one the way I did, dont blame me if something goes awry! I am just telling you how I did it, not advising anyone to build it the same.

    /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Mike
     
  10. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  11. purple76pearl

    purple76pearl 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Posts:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    missouri
    hey mike
    thanks for the info and the link, i like your set up, but in all honesty how much of an improvment was it? and how well does she manoveur< check the spelling because im in a hurry lol
     
  12. ColAdo82K5

    ColAdo82K5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2000
    Posts:
    789
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    MO
    Hey,
    The setup looks good to me, and i see that it serves it's purpose. But, have you seen that sight with all of the scary steering systems and front lift blocks ? THey poke fun at people who do crossover steering with out having the draglink go over both springs. Do you know why they do this ? I don't see a huge difference. I guess it's stronger to have the draglink and tierod seperate but that's the only reason i see at first glance, but they did that way from the factory on other 4wds...
    Anybody ?

    Blake
     
  13. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    [ QUOTE ]
    in all honesty how much of an improvment was it?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, to tell you the truth, it did improve my range of turn in both directions. Not a whole lot, but a bit. I dont know if it was due to the crossover mod or not, but it is better.
    My main reason for doing it, was getting embarrassed by the TJ Jeep of my buddy. We were wheeling in a local gravel pit near here. We take turns picking the obstacles ranging from rock piles, to dirt mounds, to moguls etc. We are fairly evenly matched with his TJ on 33s with 4" and lockers to mine with the 35s and locked and flexible. But... he picked a route to follow that weaved in and around some dirt moguls. He drove thru it without a hitch, and I followed. The problem developed when my front drivers side wheel was stuffed into the well, and I had to come down off the mound and turn left at the same time. As my drivers side tire dropped back and below the ground level, the short tie rod on the stock GM steering setup would pull my wheels back straight. Even tho the steering wheel was turned to the left lock, my wheels were straight. I couldnt make the turn and had to back out and let him go ahead. That was the last time I was letting that happen. So, thats why I did the conversion. Its the same as with all the mods these guys are doing here on CK5. You have to determine whether the mod is required for your truck and your type of wheeling. You cant just do the mods cause its 'the thing to do'. IMHO anyways.
    Hope that answers your question.

    Later
    Mike
     
  14. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    [ QUOTE ]
    The setup looks good to me, and i see that it serves it's purpose. But, have you seen that sight with all
    of the scary steering systems and front lift blocks ? THey poke fun at people who do crossover steering
    with out having the draglink go over both springs. Do you know why they do this ? I don't see a huge
    difference. I guess it's stronger to have the draglink and tierod seperate but that's the only reason i see
    at first glance, but they did that way from the factory on other 4wds...
    Anybody ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The one reason that its good to keep the crosslink over both springs is this:
    The closer to level the tie rod is, the less bump steer you will get. If the tie rod is on an angle from the pass side up to the box, as the suspension springs upwards, it will push the rod and wiggle the steering wheel.
    It may also be stronger to attach the tie rod to something other than the drag link, but if you ask me, its not that great a difference.
    Another reason is that its just higher out of the way. Mine is right in front...
    But, that site really irked me a lot. It hit me that they were poking fun at anyone who couldnt afford to do things the 'right' way, using all the big $$ expensive stuff. IMHO, mine is every bit as strong as the Dodge Ram setup on my wifes 1500 4x4, my buddys Toyota 4x4, and is prolly stronger than my buddies CJ setup, all of which are done almost exactly the same way. So, I dont know what is so scary about em.
    It was pointed out that in the case of a D60, it may be cheaper and better to use the available stuff, but I dont know. I dont have a 60... yet /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Mike
     
  15. Rustheap

    Rustheap Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Posts:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Utah
    Awesome job!!! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  16. 88K5Jimmy

    88K5Jimmy 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Posts:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tulsa OK
    [ QUOTE ]
    IMHO, mine is every bit as strong as the Dodge Ram setup on my wifes 1500 4x4, my buddys Toyota 4x4, and is prolly stronger than my buddies CJ setup, all of which are done almost exactly the same way. So, I dont know what is so scary about em.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    My thoughts exactly. Straight axle Mopar products come straight out of the factory with this type of setup. Ohh and doing crossover on a D60 is a lot easier than doing it on D44 & 10-bolts.

    One question. How did you determine the length that you needed to make the draglink? Did you turn your wheels all the way right and see how far you could place the draglink on the tierod without it hitting the passenger spring?
     
  17. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Well, my draglink length was pretty much predetermined. I used the hole in the tie rod where the steering stabilizer would normally attach. I just made sure to keep the draglink low and parrellel to the ground as far as I needed to before I angled it upwards. The way I did the draglink with the screw in rod ends at both ends lets me be able to adjust the total length nearly 3". It did take lots of test fitting... it wasnt a one shot deal by any means.

    Mike
     
  18. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2000
    Posts:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Carbondale Colorado
    Carry a spare end, a local jeep buddy tried that and had problems with the ends, that's why we built the "H" block that is welded in to my tie rod for this purpose.
    Another problem is rocking the tie rod, whenever you steer, it pulls the tie rod up and down, rotating it on it's ends. This gives a little bit of play in the steering and is harder on ends than a draglink tied to a knuckle arm.
     
  19. Chris_T

    Chris_T 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Posts:
    718
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Saskatoon, SK
    [ QUOTE ]
    The one reason that its good to keep the crosslink over both springs is this:
    The closer to level the tie rod is, the less bump steer you will get.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You mean drag link, not tie rod, yes?

    That grease zerk looks like it's going to take some punishment. I'm guessing you couldn't mount the rod the other way around due to clearance? IIRC my friend's CJ has the nut in the front rather than the end.

    I'd been thinking of that exact setup as a less expensive alternative until I bent my tie rod on 'tie rod rock' in Fulton this last weekend. Hope it works for you.
     
  20. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2000
    Posts:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    [ QUOTE ]

    Carry a spare end, a local jeep buddy tried that and had problems with the ends, that's why we built the
    "H" block that is welded in to my tie rod for this purpose.
    Another problem is rocking the tie rod, whenever you steer, it pulls the tie rod up and down, rotating it
    on it's ends. This gives a little bit of play in the steering and is harder on ends than a draglink tied to a
    knuckle arm.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually Stephen, I have noticed the tie rod rocking a bit, but I thought a big part of mine moving like that was my almost worn out ends. I have to replace them all as $$ permit. Is this a real problem area? How fast were you wearing them out? Do you think it would help to have the draglink more level at the attach point to the tie rod? So maybe it wouldnt pull upwards as much?
    Also, which rod end was wearing out on your buddies Jeep? Both tie rod ends from the up and down movement?
    Thanks for the info. Like I said before, its not perfect, but it was low buck! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    As far as the grease zerk being in the front... ya, it will take some abuse. But they make those little screw in plugs that will be better than the zerk I suppose.

    I really appreciate the comments and the observations. I am still trying to keep this low buck, but if anyone has experiences with this setups weak points, I am happy to hear them. Knowing me, I will prolly end up with a setup like I am trying to avoid just from chasing weak points. Oh well, its a learning curve! Hehe.

    Later
    Mike
     

Share This Page