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Another opinion wanted

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by the professor, Feb 18, 2003.

  1. the professor

    the professor 1/2 ton status

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    Think a 1987 700r4, well built..will hold up behind a 454..?? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  2. BlaznRebel

    BlaznRebel 1/2 ton status

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    It should i know of drag racers that run 700's and they all like them. They run in the 10's and 11's and get 16 miles to the gallon roughly, driving in town. Don't know how well they will hold up to what you might do though.
     
  3. heavy4x4

    heavy4x4 1/2 ton status

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    That's a tough question...because there are SO many variables.
    1) is the engine built
    2) what kind of driving (towing?) is it going to see
    3) how heavy is the driver's right foot
    4).....
    5)....
    ...the list could go on and on.
    I would have to say stay away from that option if possible. The TH400 was put behind 454's for a reason - it's a more stout tranny. If you have a choice between the two, get the TH400 - if not, run the 700 you've got and maybe it'll last a few years, maybe it won't. I'm working on the original in my 162,000 mile truck (stock 350) and some people are on their 5th tranny without a built engine. So, as you can see, there are many variables in the question.
    Hope that kinda helped out.
     
  4. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    a real good rebuilt one, deep extra capacity aluminum pan, a couple tranny coolers I may consider running it behind a 700R4, but I hve th400s sitting around so I would definetally take one of those. heck I have considered the idea of pulling out the 700r4 in the next rig I get(looking for an 88-91) and throwing in one of my 400s.
     
  5. 84K5cedric

    84K5cedric 1/2 ton status

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    no doubt the th400 will take serious abuse... but 700r4.com says they have a setup that will withstand up to 600hp... or so I better hope as this is the tranny I just installed


    here's a neat chart for a stock comparison
     
  6. SCOTTS_4X

    SCOTTS_4X 1/2 ton status

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    yeah I have heard that they can take this amount and they can take that amount.........my brother had one of these supposed 500 hp cappable 700's and it lasted abotu 6 months behind a motor that was making no more than 360 hp. they did everything you can do to it and it still got smoked by a 355 c.i. smallblock. granted it was making 460 lb ft. of torque.......your BB might be making more......just something to think about.......

    -Scott
     
  7. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    my thought was just waht you pointed out, how much torque can she take? I don't really care what horsepower it takes torque its wahts gonna be puting hte strain on it.
     
  8. 84K5cedric

    84K5cedric 1/2 ton status

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    it may be a good thing i've got that 1 year warranty then... we'll just have to see
     
  9. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    keep us posted, who knows maybe those guys build a real good tranny, if so I may have to talk to them someday.
     
  10. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    One of the most importent veritables is: Tire size/gears will have a major impact on how well a automadic transmission will hold up. Exspecially when overdrive becomes a factor.
     
  11. GMCLegacy

    GMCLegacy 1/2 ton status

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    i agree with Z3PR, if you are turning 35's with 3.08 gears and expect to shift'r into OD, its not going to hold up.
     
  12. 84K5cedric

    84K5cedric 1/2 ton status

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    oh yeah! until i fix my 3.73/35's situation, you can bet I'll be in D.
     
  13. the professor

    the professor 1/2 ton status

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    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gifOK folks, thanks for the opinions, and I like that link to 700r4..

    PLEASE, keep the opinions comming...I am trying to make a decision involving a lot of money... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    This is my truck as it is now: /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
    =====
    1978 K20
    1989 burban front clip (all the details)& doors
    1989 burban bucket seat, console, dash, tilt, comboswitch
    overhead console radio
    2" body
    6" chassis
    1989 454 4-bolt crate motor
    eddlebrock manifold, 800 q'jet
    headders
    all ca smog equip, dual cats x-over 2.5 in through
    crane cam &springs
    roller rockers
    MSD billet HEI dist
    MSD 6a /remote coil
    Of course, CHROME valve covers..(a must for a BB)
    TH400 (wide ratio 2.71 first gearset)
    14bolt, corporate, floater...3.73:1..all rebuilt, new brakes and bearings...
    2200rpm converter
    NP205
    33-12.5x16.5 mud tires
    16.5x9.75 chrome spoke wheels
    ======
    --
    It was an original 400 w/TH350...I didn't do the engine change, it was a 1989 Crate Motor...I did the rest though

    The TH350, rebuilt when I got it...lated about 2 years...with constant burnouts, burns into 2ond and incredably harsh shifts into second...(one of the lo/rev seals got cut on assembly, and I had to run realy high line pressure to move in reverse)

    Comming back from getting it smogged last summer, I got on it in joy that it passed, and when it shifted into second, the rear planetary let go...

    I had a 2wd TH400, so I built it, used a 2.71 first gearset and a 27spline adapter (cut down shaft)...the cheapest I could find..TCI if I remember

    I rebuilt the 205 at the same time.

    Didn't have the time or money to have the case machined for the bigger bearing, so I could use the 30 spline input on the 205 ($200.00+ for the shaft alone) so I opted for the $225 for the adapter...figured I could do it later if it stripped...

    It works fantastic, and except for the possibility of stripping the 27spline, it has held up ok..

    Sorting out the governor with the 2.71 was a bitch..but well worth it..

    Now things are getting complicated...gas is getting realy expensive, and 6mpg is not real nice..

    I was going to try 35 tires, but the gear change isn't worth it..

    I can't go higher than 3.52 in the rear, unless I change my D44 to a GM10...NO 3.42 gearset for the D44..

    In any case, the tallest for a 14-bolt is 3.42... I would want 3.08's

    Was even thinking of changing it to 2wd (I have a donor suburban)

    And new tires, either 16.5 street tires, getting very hard to find, Dunlop RV's are the only realy big ones left...and are expensive

    Changing to 16.0 would mean new wheels, AND tires..and EVERYTHING that says 16" is MORE expensive than 16.5 and WAY more expensive than 15"

    So I thought I might use this new junk suburban I got for donor 6 lug diffs...

    This other donor suburban, that I got the 700/208, has 3.08's, and the front diff is perfect.new brakes, calipers and everything....BUTTTTT..the left rear wheel bearing is shot, the axle toast....and all the gear lube leaked out, and killed the r&p...junk
    /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    Soooooo, I am considering the OD trans...using the 208 with it...I have all the shafts and stuff..

    But, so far, these posts are as varied as the answers I got from:
    ==
    /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif B&M-don't use 700 behind BB..not only that, they said it would make NO difference in my mpg...?? Now if I drop my freeway cruise down from about 2800rpm to 2200rpm or less, I would think I would get some improvement...

    /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif TCI-yes do it

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Hughs-Maby...
    ==
    The bottom line is nobody seems to know for sure

    If I spend $400 or 500 to upgrad this trans, and it frys in 6 months (or 6 days), I am going to be realy pissed...

    The truck needs paint, it is 3 different colors, and needs some slight body work, minor dents, no rust..but I don't seem to be able to get to it...

    Oh yea, I have another 1989 454TBI on a stand in my garage, and I was going to put the TH400 back on that, convert it back to 2wd and put it in something light (without the TBI)

    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  14. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Professor,

    It would be great if you "cut and paste" some of this detail into your profile.... it's nice to see it on this thread, but next time you ask a question people will still have the ability to get "background" on you and your trucks setup.


    FWIW -> A "built" 700R4 should hold together (Stephen Watson's Jimmy, and Steve Fox's Project UAV come to mind)...but a stock 700 with a lot of miles on it, has no business being there. I'm going with the most complicated route....a 4L80E behind my BB. It's basically a TH400 strength-wise with an overdrive like the 700.

    So far all I've got is a rebuildable "Core"...now all I need is the $$$ to finish the swap!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
     
  15. DPI

    DPI 1/2 ton status

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    You need to check out Bowtie Overdrives They build a 700R4 that will handle that kind of HP and Torque. The link above is the tranny I am getting when I go to a doubler. They have extreme duty upgrade parts that will survive a big block. And the prices are not bad for the amount of detail that they put in their trannys. They are very helpful with any questions you have and they responded back to my questions via email within a day. They only use the 88-93 "K" core cases only.

    Here is the email I recieved back from BTO, like I said very thorough and informative!!

    Daniel:

    Please find the following prices per your request:

    · Our Level Two Th-700R4 (4L60) transmission is $1224.00. These units are select 1988 to 1993 4X4 "K" case cores only. The cases are cleaned and prepared by a special operation that leaves a beautiful like new natural aluminum finish. We never paint our cases. Have you ever wondered why other companies paint theirs? We perform a blueprint overhaul using quality brand name components like Raybestos, Alto, Borg-Warner, Torrington, Delco-Remy etc. We machine the pump surfaces with a diamond tool leaving perfectly flat mating surfaces. The common problem of cross bleeding of fluid between these aluminum pump halves is virtually eliminated. Every transmission features a new hardened steel 10 vane pump rotor and new vanes, new hardened steel high rpm guide rings, double and stiffer slider springs (prevents pressure fall off at high engine rpm's), H.D. 29 element sprag, output Planetary with hardened ring gear and H.D. Pinion gears, all new bushing's, (double width in most critical load areas), custom made (to our specs) one piece Teflon seals, high temperature center seal, custom built servo assembly (our design), larger boost valves (both the main and the low/reverse), special accumulators (our design), valve body and spacer plate calibration (our design), nine frictions and steels in the 3/4 clutch pack with a special backing plate, extra wide performance band, special band anchoring to prevent breakage and we increase lubrication circuit flow. We perform over 40 upgrades and modifications for increased durability and strength. We install a new Delco-Remy transmission pan with new bolts. We also take the time to install a drain plug for easy maintenance. This drain plug location makes adding an electric temperature gauge very easy since the drain plug is 1/8" NPT, the same as most modern electric temperature gauge senders. http://www.700r4.com/trans/level2.htm

    · Our Level Three transmissions, http://www.700r4.com/trans/level3.htm, include everything included in the Level One, http://www.700r4.com/trans/level1.htm, and Level two transmissions, http://www.700r4.com/trans/level2.htm, plus we install our Extreme Duty "Torque Drive" components, which increases the torque load capacity by around 60%! These components make these transmissions perfect choices for big blocks, blower or turbocharged engines, nitrous or any other application that need extra strength. These Level three transmissions are $1488.00 outright which includes the 4X4 "K" case and the Advance Adapters P/N 50-6900 installed.

    · Heavy Duty High Performance Torque Converter: These torque converters are great for high performance street applications. Available in 1800 to 2200 brake stall speeds. Feature a new 4130 steel pump drive hub, positive angle brazed turbine vanes, brazed pump vanes, new Torrington bearing, heavy duty sprag, aggressive stator, HD dampening spring assembly, Carbon-fiber friction material and precision balanced for smooth operation. Price is $154.00. http://www.700r4.com/getpart.asp?cat=Torque%20Converters&id=62

    · Zero to 300 PSI gauge with six foot hose and close 90 degree fitting is $29.00. This is a basic diagnostic tool that we require be installed during the start up and test driving to confirm the pressures are the same as when the transmission left our test stand. http://www.700r4.com/getpart.asp?cat=Setup%20Tools&id=78

    · Highly recommend the following two items: Transmission Temperature gauges. Overdrive automatic transmissions by their very nature will produce more converter heat while in overdrive when the converter is unlocked. We highly recommend monitoring the heat transfer efficiency of your radiator cooling system at least for the first few hundred miles to confirm your systems effectiveness. This gauge kit comes with a 1/8" NPT sender unit that screws right into the place of the drain plug we provide in our transmission pans. This makes installation a snap. Temperature gauge and sender is $29.00. We also have a black "L" shaped mounting bracket available for $11.00. http://www.700r4.com/getpart.asp?cat=Setup%20Tools&id=237

    · http://www.700r4.com/getpart.asp?cat=Setup%20Tools&id=238
    · Inline cooling line filter. This filter is highly recommended whenever you install a new transmission into a vehicle. The fresh load of high detergent transmission fluid along with increased operating pressures will dislodge debris for inside the cooling line and heat exchanger. This particulate matter will many times cause governors and valve bodies to stick during the start up process requiring these components to be removed, cleaned and reinstalled. This filter is only recommended during the installation, start up and first 100 to 500 miles after a conversion. It should then be permanently removed. Cost is $19.00. http://www.700r4.com/getpart.asp?cat=Setup%20Tools&id=77

    · Our company has always felt that proper installation was the real key to success with these nifty overdrives. All of our transmissions come to you with a set of comprehensive written installation guidelines plus we have excellent technical support available via the telephone. We believe this is the main reason why our company has less than 1/2 of one percent return rate for any reason. It has been our experience that most people wish to do a job correctly; they just need to know how to do so.

    · Freight will be $127.46. We have a freight special through February where we will pay the first $100.00 of the freight charges which would make your cost to have this transmission shipped only $27.46. This will be shipped using Con-Way to their nearest terminal closest to the zip you gave or a commercial address (same zip). If you wish to have it shipped to your home address, someone will need to be there to receive it that can assist in lifting it off the truck, weight 210 pounds. This service costs an additional $50.00.

    A couple of thoughts; our warranty covers defective parts and workmanship but your combination is very susceptible to overheating which is not covered under the warranty. Overheating is preventable, in your situation, you will need to learn how to manage the torque converter lock up system. If not you will burn up a lot of these transmissions since your gearing and tires will be placing seriously high torque loads on the torque converter under all driving situations! This is why we recommend a temperature gauge be installed to monitor the fluid temperature all the time.

    If you have added a spacer under your TBI unit or modified your TV cable in any way, you need to discuss this with us. The TV cable system controls the output of the transmission hydraulic pump and your transmissions pump output needs to be more aggressive because of your combination. Spacers marketed to increase engine torque output radically change the TV cable relationship and will slow your transmissions pressure rise just when you need it to be more aggressive!

    We have all these items in stock and can ship your order very quickly. Hope this provides the information you were looking for.

    If something was overlooked, please feel free to ask further questions. We accept all major credit cards, money orders, cashiers checks, bank transfers or personal checks from southern CA. Our normal office hours are from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. Monday through Friday PST.

    Sincerely
    Steve Holmes

    Bow Tie Overdrive
    E-mail address: dr700r4@700r4.com
    Telephone: (760) 947-5240
    FAX number: (760) 948-0196
    Web site: http://www.700r4.com
     
  16. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    if you are really set on tall gears, i saw a 14FF in the junkyard the other day with 3.23s in it...dont know where you are, but $50, Abilene Tx
     
  17. the professor

    the professor 1/2 ton status

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    /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.Well, I just got an answer from KDS performance...they are the people at 700r4.com/Bowtie performance
    --
    If I want to install $615 worth of parts, I will get a trans good for "an occasional romp"
    --
    And thats using the "red" clutch plates and band...which wear out really fast...
    --
    If I spend another $300, I can make it handle 600lb ft of torque...
    --
    Does not sound like the best of ideas...
    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  18. the professor

    the professor 1/2 ton status

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    Would be suprised at a 14 FF with anything taller than 3:42, thats the highest I could find listed....
    --
    thanks for the suggestion though, I will do more research.. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  19. the professor

    the professor 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks for the suggestion, Greg42, I am new at this site /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
    --
    Watch the 4L80e..You didn't say what year, but I did some research on that before I built the 400, I found one in Rohnert Park...
    --
    I din't catch what year your truck was but:

    The 4L80 has a different "indexing" on the rear, you have to use an Advanced Adapters adapter to use it with a NP205 or 208..UNLESS you have a "drivers drop" 208, then it will probably work...

    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  20. 90K5

    90K5 1/2 ton status

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    Yeah, I was surprised too, but i divided the numbers on the ring gear and thats what it equaled...i know what i saw
     

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