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Are the cops lying ???

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Z3PR, Oct 25, 2002.

  1. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Plymouth Observer 06/28/01
    Oakland attorney sues to uncover biker list compiled by State PoliceBy Mike Malott
    HomeTown News ServiceIt's just a Freedom of Information Act dispute now, but depending on how the state responds to a lawsuit filed by a Bingham Farms attorney, it could turn into a case reminiscent of the old Michigan State Police "Red Files" controversy.Lawrence Katkowsky, attorney for the motorcyclist lobbying group ABATE, has filed suit in Oakland County Circuit Court seeking "all lists . . . of members and associates of motorcycle clubs in the state" by the Michigan State Police and its Criminal Intelligence Unit.Katkowsky contends that State Police have been compiling a list of people who belong to such motorcycle clubs across the state."No, that's not true," said David Verhougstraete, spokesman for the State Police, said. "That would be against the law. That goes back to the days of the Red Files. We don't keep lists on gangs . . . . There is no such list. We don't keep lists whether it's of the gang across town or militia members." Katkowsky however pointed out that that was not the department's first response. When he filed an FOI request with the State Police in April, the answer he got back, dated May 15, was that the "request has been denied . . . in order to prevent an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."David Fedewa, the assistant FOIA Coordinator for the State Police who wrote that response, said it does not count as a confirmation of the existence of the list."I did not think there was a list, but at the time I was not 100 percent sure," Fedewa said. "I was running late and on deadline. I went with the exemption on privacy because if there was such a list, releasing it would be an invasion of privacy."Chris DeWitt, spokesman for the state Attorney General, which will represent the State Police in the lawsuit, also could not confirm whether the list exists. He said the paperwork had just been referred to his office, so he could not comment. The case has been assigned to attorney Thomas Quasarano, who said he would be meeting with State Police officials to determine whether there is such a list, even if it was misidentified in Katkowsky's request.The state must respond to the lawsuit by July 9. The case has been assigned to Judge Gene Schnelz."Well, there is a list and I can prove it," Katkowsky said.He said he has a copy of one page of it, page 37 of 48. The list includes names, addresses and Social Security numbers, he said. Further, the sheet identifies itself as a Michigan State Police document. It also indicates it comes from the department's Criminal Intelligence Unit.Katkowsky said he doesn't know how many people are included on the list, why it has been compiled or how it is being used. That's why he wants to see it.He suspects he's on it since he is both a rider himself and because he's the attorney for Michigan chapter of the advocacy group, American Bikers Aiming Toward Education.The list came to light, Katkowsky contended, because a Charlevoix man was turned down for a renewal of his permit to carry a concealed weapon. The reason given was that his name appeared on that State Police list, identifying him as an associate of motorcycle club members in that area.The fact the list turned up there indicates that State Police have already "invaded the privacy" of those on the list, Katkowsky stated, and has already distributed it to other agencies such as CCW boards and police departments."The list includes Social Security numbers. How'd they get that information? No legal way I know of," Katkowsky said.If indeed the State Police have been compiling a list of bikers, it would be inappropriate, Katkowsky contended."Most bikers are guys who ride and they are just like you and me," he said. "They work at their jobs, they pay their taxes and they go home to their families in the evening. They are men, men and women, who just like to ride their motorcycles in their spare time."There are hard-core bikers, he said, "the one-percenters, who see themselves as the toughest of the tough. It will usually say '1%' somewhere on their jackets."Even those riders are law-abiding and cooperate with police, Katkowsky said. The image of the outlaw biker gang is largely a fiction of Hollywood, he contended."People who ride come from all walks of life," he said, "and that includes those who belong to a club."Katkowsky also sees the comparisons to the "Red Files." Throughout the 1960s, Michigan State Police and Detroit Police gathered information about suspected communists and communist-front organizations. When the existence of those files came to light in the 1970s, it created a long-standing controversy. Many state residents wanted to know if they were included in the list and what information police had compiled about them. The court case involving the State Police is still not completely settled.
     
  2. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Nobody wants to give a opinion to if the cops are lying ??? Personally, I think they are.
     
  3. uglychevyZZ4

    uglychevyZZ4 3/4 ton status

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    undoubtedly they are, Sheesh, I just saw that show last week on .50 cal guns and how they have lists of the members of the militias that have these /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif they admitted it openly /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
     
  4. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Well, it is a known fact that gangbangers are "known" to the local constabulary in these parts. Maybe they are, maybe they ain't.
     
  5. gotmud?

    gotmud? 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Charlevoix man was turned down for a renewal of his permit to carry a concealed weapon. The reason given was that his name appeared on that State Police list, identifying him as an associate of motorcycle club members in that area.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I personally know several guy's in a well known bike club that have recently gotten ccw permit's,
     
  6. UseYourBlinker

    UseYourBlinker 1 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Nobody wants to give a opinion to if the cops are lying ???

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Nope
     
  7. MOABDADC22

    MOABDADC22 1/2 ton status

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    The only thing that I can say is............My department recently went through a similar lawsuit (regarding a study on numerous successfull suicides in the jail). My department lost. PUBLIC INFORMATION IS PUBLIC INFORMATION!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif

    There is a very specific way (Supreme Court ruling /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif) to protect "Confidential /forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" Information. We (cops) have to follow the rules too. It sounds like Oakland County made the same mistake as my department and did NOT /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif follow the rules. Tough luck /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif..............maybe next time they will remember how to protect "Confidential /forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" information. Oakland County...........bite the bullet and give 'em the list. /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif
     
  8. TITAN

    TITAN 1/2 ton status

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    No one wants to comment because it is a touchy issue. A law enforcement officer cannot profile, it is illegal. A list is illegal, it implifies that you are profiling the people on the list or that you intend to discriminate against these people due to race, religion, or etc. I agree that there are lines that cannot be crossed, and there are things that are not acceptable on list. However I don't disagree to there being a list of people or groups of people whom are more likely than not to create an issue that may result in the death, or injury, of either parties envolved. I do not beleive that it is fair to know for a fact that a particular person or group of person might jeapodize your life willingly do to their beleifs, or wishes, and not have a manner to communicate this to another officer until it results in an officers death. If I knew as an officer that there was a group of people that were targeting Blazer owners for killing, I would make a list of those people and let you know who, and what to look for. Can not the same be expected for a law enforcement officer? Sorry to ramble.
     
  9. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack 1/2 ton status

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    Yes, cops lie. Profiling? Personally I think 90% of the time it's not profiling.... it's a fact!!!!
     
  10. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    This reply isn't directed at anyone in particular, but this quote got the wheels turning and ball rolling in my head...

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    I do not beleive that it is fair to know for a fact that a particular person or group of person might jeapodize your life willingly do to their beliefs, or wishes, and not have a manner to communicate this to another officer until it results in an officers death.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Think of a gun owners list, and then think of one day police breaking down your door, confiscating all your guns, because you're a suspect in a crime somewhere. Or maybe you'll just get rejected for a city or town job, because they checked that list.

    I can see the above quote being acceptable for individuals who've already been convicted of a crime, that's the only way you can really "know for a fact" (unless you uncover a conspiracy /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif). If a person hasn't been convicted of a crime and is put on a list or "potential troublemakers", "people to look out for", "smelly people", etc, I consider more than a violation of the law, but a police attitude of "Us against Them", infringing on my right as an american to do whatever the heck I want as long as I'm not breaking the law.
    Police shouldn't be using a list to watch or be extra careful with individuals, they should be trained to expect the worst at every turn. A man in a suit with a briefcase can jeopardize an officers life as easily as a hardcore biker. An officers training should make him wary, not a "list". That statement wouldn't convince me to allow a department to keep a list.

    If a person has a squeaky clean criminal record but is heavy into Harley's, etc, why does he deserve to be classed as "potential threat"? He doesn't, it just gives police encouragement to harass or invade his privacy by watching him.
    As a result of a stereotyping list, a man was denied the legal right to continue to carry a concealed weapon, something he'd done before (and we can only assume since he's not in jail) without killing people or commiting crime with it. He wasn't denied because he was a criminal, he was denied because he was ugly and smelled like tuna, or whatever reason he made it to the list. That is NOT the american way, and any American, including the American that denied his permit renewal, should be outraged at this.

    I was "profiled" by Jersey police when I was driving my Camaro a couple years ago. I barely fit the profile, in fact only by driving a camaro did I.

    Get everyone on a list and you have a police state. Police and government constantly overstep thier bounds, and are rarely called on it because America needs it to be right in their face to get up and do something. Case in piont: a recent study showed Americans have returned to "normalcy" and Complacency after 9/11.

    Bottom line: An American's rights were violated because of his looks.



    Hey Z3PR, is that 1% thing true?
     
  11. NEOMASTINO2U

    NEOMASTINO2U 1/2 ton status

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    profiling goes on at just about every department that i know of, no offense to any police officers here, remember i used to be one, but some departments have list's of gangmembers known bikers etc. etc., some departments don't but it is still in the back of there minds who and what to look for, unfortunatly. I get pulled over all the time in my blazer because they think a young teenager male is driving it because of how it looks, i am not breaking any laws at the time either, so when they see its some old lady driving they tell me to get the exhaust fixed and send me on my way, i have glass packs, completly legal. so yes profiling goes on, if you are driving a hot looking and sounding car, truck or motorcycle, even color is profiled. i know of one police department that has pictures and a list of known gang members on a wall wether they have been convicted of a crime or not. so every department is different, if they have a list just hand it over. they just need to learn to quit profiling like someone said in this post, a man wearing a suit and carrying a breifcase could be just as dangerous as a man on a harley.


    kelly
     
  12. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Hey Z3PR, is that 1% thing true?

    [/ QUOTE ] For the most part the 1%ers are law abiding. Most of the ones I know are anyways. Some might do a few illeagle things, but they don't go around shooting people for no reason.
     
  13. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    No, sorry, I meant do they really have a "1%" on thier jacket?
     
  14. 70jimmy

    70jimmy 3/4 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Does a list exist? Probably. I bet there were lists established in the washington DC maryland virginia area of people who drove white vans. Turns out it had nothing to do with the sniper. You don't think lists of people who have anti american views exist with FBI and other sources. Many of these people have not been convicted of anything but based on behavior of some members of a group, many people feel that if you belong to the same group you may be involved in the same activity.

    There are websites about cops who supposedly acted inappropriately. Many of these were not convicted but are still on a list.

    If you search this site you can find posts about people who handled parts transactions poorly or who handled them well. Did the people who handled them poorly break any laws? But yet they are still put on a list.

    My point there are lists in many facets of life, some are credible some are not. Some people who are on those lists didn't violate any laws just simply fit an indicator of people who have done certain actions that are illegal or maybe just inappropriate in someones view.

    The person who was denied a concealed weapons permit can look into any recourse he may have such as an appeal. It may be that the person who says whether or not the permit should be issued changed or his criteria. Just because he is a "Biker" shouldn't be grounds for not issuing the permit.

    Many Officers are "Bikers" and they are paid to carry a weapon.

    Ok Step away from the soapbox!!
     
  15. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Seen more then a few at Sturgis.
     

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