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Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Avery4jc, Aug 6, 2006.

  1. Avery4jc

    Avery4jc 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Hey guys and gals, I was thinking about some things since I have a little $$ to spend on the rig and I need to get some mechanical things fixed (although I'd love to get the stereo finished before school starts) I decided to be smart and make sure it's ready for a year of driving to school.

    Ok, what I need help on is two things, first is the stupid tranny. I found a guy that has a factory GM rebuilt 700R4 that he said was pulled out of his '85 pickup with 5K miles on it and he is pretty close to me. I found him on Pirate and am waiting to hear back from him. Were the Factory Rebuilt GM transmissions 1st gen or 2nd gen 700R4's?

    If it is a 2nd gen 700R4 then I'm going to snag it up and put it in my rig....if not then what would it take to get it to a 2nd gen status. Basically I'm asking what the differences were? I was thinking of a very mild shift kit, 85Mudblazin's corvette servo and .500 boost valve and I think there was a difference in the vane (sp?) pump.

    Would the above stuff make it a descent 700r4 for my dd needs and my very mild 350?


    Ok, the next thing I was wondering was about gears...I was all ready to order a single set of 5.13's for my rear 10b (I know but it'll keep my tranny happy and get me to school in 2wd until I build some one ton running gear) and then somebody mentioned that with 5.13's in a 10b the contact patch is so small that I'd probably break them. Is that true even for street driving?

    Thanks for the answers guys and gals!

    -Avery
     
  2. hawkeye649

    hawkeye649 1/2 ton status

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    Just one question, if your factory tranny crapped the bed, why are you buying another one with the same old sh*tty factory parts in it? And pay premo $$$? Either go to the junk yard, go to your friends junk yard (ie back yard), or go to a TRUCK shop that rebuilds trannys, tell them what you have and what you do, and they will build you a really nice tranny for your application. :wink1: Any one of those last 3 will be money well spent.
     
  3. roadnotca

    roadnotca 3/4 ton status

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    If the Pirate doesn't have paper, you had better be a good reader of body language. Either way, no more than $400(?) IMO.
    I doubt the factory would sell and warrant a marginal product (first gen).
    For the size of tire that you want to stay with, not another $ into the 10Bs, they will break. I'm sure I'm pushing the envelope with 34.5s, 3.90s under a Burb, but then I don't try to break my DD.:D
     
  4. hunterguy86

    hunterguy86 1/2 ton status

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    I wouldnt spend the money on a 10bolt. After breaking mine I've decided its not worth it. Go to a 14 bolt and regear that. Just my 2 cents.


    Dustin
     
  5. stockk5

    stockk5 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    why would u ever spend the money to regear teh 10bolt to 513's you can find a 14bolt w/ like 456's they will be plenty, hell even 410's will be fine and only a few hundred u can get them. and put it in.
     
  6. 1985_K5_Silverado

    1985_K5_Silverado 1/2 ton status

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    That's a good point! They could go here for starters, and see if the boneyards have any suitable axles in their area:

    http://car-part.com/index.htm
     
  7. FOR MUD

    FOR MUD 1/2 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Don't foget to add the price of the new rims he will need.
     
  8. roadnotca

    roadnotca 3/4 ton status

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    Ouch. You've been awake for three more hours than we have. Ouch. Ouch.:haha:
     
  9. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    You can't really make a 1st gen into a 2nd gen 700R4. The housings are cast differently. Not external differences (except the half moon on the passenger side that ID's the newer casting) but internal stuff.

    I wouldn't pay much at all for a used 700R4 with no warranty. No disrespect to the seller, but even with it being a GM rebuild it's just a risky proposition.

    Plenty of people are sold "good" used stuff only to have it fail shortly afterwards. No way the seller can know in some cases, but when taking that risk, the price had better be well worth it.
     
  10. NateInChandler

    NateInChandler 1/2 ton status

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    I always hear all this talk about 1st and 2nd gen 700R4's, everyone always talks down about the 1st gen but you know what, if you know how to build them they will take some abuse and last a long time.. Ive got about 8,000 miles on the one i built in my truck and just pulled the pan to change a spring and there was NO METAL, and VERY LITTLE FRICTION MATERIAL. what is everyones problems with these trannies, put the beast sun shell in it with the late style input sprag assembly and the thick low sprag and you will have a strong tranny. This is what i do for a living and i know what im talking about, the 2nd gen aux valve body 700R'4s have the same problem as the early ones beacause the sun shells are junk in them along with the new 4l60'Es that gm is producing. once again, they have crappy sun shells im them and are made to Ramp the convertor clutch on instead of a on/off pattern. this makes the tranny get hot faster and creates more wear. heres a list of whats in my tranny.

    Early 700R4, no aux VB.
    The big low sprag and 5 pinion planets
    The late style input sprag assembly
    The Beast sun shell
    Billet 4 gear servo and corvette servo for 1-2
    .500 tv boost valve.
    steel pump rings and not the cast ones.
    10 vane pump
    cast alluminum pan and torque convertor cover (K case)
    Adjusted to MAX TV, theres No adjustment for your tv valve, the specs are MAX TV, if anyone tells you different they are wrong.

    Hope this will help here, i just got fed up with everyone sayingt he 1st gens are bad, they are only bad if you dont know how to build them.Nate
     
  11. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Since it appears as though you don't accept PM's i'll ask you in here. I had a 700R4 rebuilt recently and once installed soon found out it had no OD. Also the tranny would upshift from 1st even though it was in manual 1st gear, (i was told that there are 2 different valve body's and one would allow this to happen) so the valve body was replaced which fixed that issue. I swapped out the factory servo with a corvette servo and same thing, tried moving the TV cable in several places (i know there is only one correct position) still nothing. Any ideas on what the problem could be.
     
  12. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    1st gens have a bad reputation because rebuilders don't know what they are doing. No offense to you, I'm just stating fact. You know full well GM had problems with these in stock form, or there wouldn't BE a second generation.

    It's known that the later (2nd gen+) 700/4L60/E ones are simply better trannies. Plenty of folks running stock ones very hard, for very long periods of time, with no problems, while I think you'll have a hard time finding a stock 1st gen left in anything that hasn't been rebuilt.

    I don't know all of what GM changed in hard parts when they went with the 2nd gen, but even looking at your list of parts I see that you've got "late style" parts and a bunch of other upgraded parts. It's my understanding that starting out with a 2nd gen means you've got most of the upgrades GM implemented over the years which led to the 2nd gen.

    Not to argue, just bringing up a few points. Stock 1st gen or stock 2nd gen, the 2nd gen is better. I don't think anyone will argue that?
     
  13. NateInChandler

    NateInChandler 1/2 ton status

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    Im not a actual paying member yet so i cant get or send pm's. as far as your no 4th gear issues. sounds like 3-4 clutch failure if you have no metal in the pan, is the unit out of the truck where you can pull the pan and look at some things?? how was the 2nd gear on the unit, 2nd and 4th work off the band so if its burned up or someone has the wrong servo pin in it it will not work correctly.. Nate
     
  14. NateInChandler

    NateInChandler 1/2 ton status

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    In stock form 535 i agree with you, i have later parts in my 700r4 to insure me that its gonna last. Its been said that the metal used in the 1st gen 700r4's was a very soft metal and couldnt last under the intense loads that a trans is put under. Still to this day GM uses mexico for some of the metal parts in the trans and thats why the are still having problems (look at the brand new Trailblazer, ive done probably 7 of those trannies where the sun shell breaks at the splines. im not saying that the 1st gen is superier, im just saying that with time and money a 1st gen can still hold some power and be reliable. If it was up to me i would have a 2nd gen, but it just so happens that my truck came with a 1st gen when i bought it and the first thing i did was pull the thing out and overhaul it with some goodies (i work at a tranny shop so that helped) Nate
     
  15. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Let me state once more, this tranny was fully rebuilt and had no OD from the get go. Every other gear in the tranny works flawlessly. I was told that 2nd and 4th use the same band and that 1st and 3rd shared something also and if all my other gears work it must be in the valve body or elsewhere. This confuses me though since the valve body was changed and still the same problem. I highly doubt that he just happened to install a second valve body with the same problem.

    PS: this tranny only has about an hour run time then i pulled it and put my VERY hard shifting tranny back in since i needed the rig.
     
  16. NateInChandler

    NateInChandler 1/2 ton status

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    if he changed the vb and you still had the same problem i would suspect the 4th gear servo being either bad or not sealing right.. pull the pan and air check the servo with the little hole thats under the pan sealing serfice where the gasket rides.. if it does not air check good pull the servo cover off (pull the clip, then pull the cover out far enough to cut the o-ring, then pull the servo cover and piston out, install the piston in the cover and air check it through the center hole, if it doesnt air check ok then thats your problem.. Nate
     
  17. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    How does a servo go bad? I'm also guessing this isn't the case since i've already swapped servos a couple times and still have the same issue.

    How do i air check the servo? Is this hole you speak of in the pan rail surface of the case? Also you said air check the servo in the cover. Am i just seeing if the servo moves when air is applied?
     
  18. NateInChandler

    NateInChandler 1/2 ton status

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    4x4, yes, the air check is in the pan rail, a tiny hole.., what your looking for when youi have the cover and piston out is to apply about 40psi of air in the center hole, if the piston pops towards you with a good thunk its good, if it hesatates at all its junk... Nate
     
  19. 4X4HIGH

    4X4HIGH 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    If the cover and piston are out then how is applying 40psi through the hole going to tell me anything? Are you talking about testing the piston while it is in the cover but off the tranny?

    Also, are you just short on funds to buy a membership? PM's are somtimes nicest as to not clog up someone else's post.
     
  20. Avery4jc

    Avery4jc 1 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Wow, there has been a ton of action around here while I was out working this morning. 4X4High and nate, I don't care, it's relative so carry on.

    Ok guys to clear some stuff up the guy on Pirate was asking $400 for the tranny and tc. He said that he'd seperate them and sell it if somebody else wanted the tc, another member chimed in and said he was interested so I'm going to try to get him down to $200-$250 for it. Honestly I don't think that's too bad considering a core can sometimes be that much.

    If I were to have a local tranny shop do the upgrades (including labor) what's a rough estimate for the job nate? $300, $400?

    Then I could end up with a new tranny with the upgrades to hold up to my dd and light off-roading needs for 1/2 to 1/3 as much as buying a new lightest duty tranny from TCI, Mad Dog, etc.

    Oh, and as far as the 10b stuff goes as much as you all hate it in my situation, yes, swaping gears is more economical. Plus the rim issue is something to think about. Something I completley forgot about is the 14sf. It's way strong for what I do and it would allow me to keep everything I have. Either way for the time being machine over on Pirate has 10b gear sets with mini install kits for $175 shipped to my door. I don't think I can get a re-geared 14sf and surley not a 14ff/d44/wheels for that price.

    It may seem like money down the drain but I've got to get this thing running, and fast.

    Oh, and I measured my "38.5" Baja Claws today and they are only 37" so I think I'll go with 4.88's for now, then if I like them I'll put them in my big axles down the road, if not then I'll go lower. This way I don't have to worry about the contact patch.

    -Avery
     

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