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Buillding the 5.9 ctd for the second gen conversion

Discussion in '1982-Present GM Diesel' started by camiswelding, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    I didnt want to muddy the conversion thread... which is getting longer and longer so I thought I'd post here for ideas... if Im able put something well thought out together Ill add it to the conversion post

    I decided to get a 12v 5.9 CTD (thanks byron). Its a 1989 vintage. I selected it because of the ease of conversion hassles compared to the later motors

    I am looking for ideas on how to build the ultimate CTD.... not super bombed.. just a nice sano rebuild using all available tricks and technology

    I know I can go to a p pump and a larger turbo but Im more interested on what pistons to use and what tricks are good for the inside build....

    There are articles on the ultimate 6.2 build but even over at tdr not much on actually how to build up the 12v ctd as a stumpuller mileage motor for the tow rig

    Im also debating tranny options,,, I like the idea of the 4l80 to the chevy 205... and so Im very interested in 59crewcabs research on the swap ....

    Im gathering pieces... help me decide how to approach the motor build

    I thank you ahead of time for any ideas

    cam
     
  2. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    I am no CTD expert, but from my readings, I gathered that the cummins already has a lot of potential in stock mechanical form that no one bothers with changing those parts, it's mostly the pump and turbo and exhaust as well as intercoolers.
    And of course in the newer ones the chips.
    :D
    IceMan
     
  3. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    sounds like you have it. 89s biggest problems are the injection pump and turbo(exhaust housing notably). What were the problems you found with the 94-98.5 12Vs? Personally that is what I'm looking for. More power potential in the stock parts, though likely everything will be replaced anyway. And it will be what Demon44 said :D
     
  4. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    I went with the 89 for ease of install on the conversion... its so basic...

    I spent the day talking to some local "experts"... thay didnt advise the ceramic coated pistons... they felt it was an uneeded/unjustified expense...

    the best advice I could get was
    p pump or upgrade the rotary pump
    better injectors
    better turbo
    intercool it

    the 89 motor has a good potential of up to 300bhp,,, but I am hoping for something in the range of 220-240.. which I think is pretty doable... keeps a reliable mileage motor

    careful rebuild...

    I found what appears to be a quality name brand master rebuild kit on ebay for 500-565,,,,

    who knows what the machine work will cost,,, Ill just have to see what the motor looks like when I get it apart... my only real worry is a bad head or something like that

    Anyone have any tips on good rebuild manuals for the ctd???

    thanks

    cam
     
  5. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    So in other words, for his goals it's not necessary.
    I don't think any of us here thinks any upgrade is useless, it's just what is needed for our levels of power.

    By the way, thanks for your input, we could always use more extreme info,it pushes the envelope.
    :D
     
  6. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    any ideas are welcome guys,,, thinking outside the box while the motor is apart is the best time to decided what upgrades are justified and what arent,,,,
    every inch of knowledge is power

    keep it coming

    As an aside anyone have any good sources for a rebuild manual.. haynes etc are pitiful.... do you have to go to cummin for a factory manual?

    cam
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2006
  7. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Why even tear the motor down? Is it blown up to begin with? If it has under 300K on th engine and it looks to not have a ton of sludge built up in the pan than I would run it.

    I personally don't see any reason to go with anything but stock as far as the rebuild goes.

    If I read it correctly, you want to make 220-240HP. My stock 2001 Cummins makes 235HP.

    If it was me I would intercool the engine, turn up the injection pump, put some (roughly) 80HP sticks in it, and an aftermarket turbo or even a stock 12cm turbo off of a later manual Dodge Cummins. I'm not sure what the early rotary pump 6BT's come with.

    That combo right there would put you in the 300HP range and would move nicely down the road.

    The stock long block would have no problem holding this amount of power, and probably would still be fine with another 100HP on top of that depending on the amount of boost being generated.

    Lets put it this way, I have heard that you need to O-ring the head if you want to run more than about 45-50psi of boost. Stock boost levels are around 20psi on some of the later intercooled trucks, I'm not sure on the early motors like in question. My dad has a 2002 H.O. Cummins and is making 310HP and right around 700ft lbs, he is probably right around 30psi, a long way from the danger zone. At that 45-50psi point I think an 0-ring job is the only thing required. MANY people run in the 600+HP range on just an Oring with the stock bottom end.

    Basically, if all you want is 220-240HP the stock long block can EASILY handle that. Shoot, Cummins set that engine at those power levels for other applications like agriculture, from the factory.

    Diesel rebuilding and performance stuff is different than a gas engine. Instead of going with new pistons, different cam, bored cylinders, bigger heads, stronger crank and rods like with a gas engine..... the stock Cummins motor can handle a MUCH MUCh larger percentage of power increase than say a small block chevy stock engine can.

    As far as the transmission, I dont know whats available for upgrades for a 4L80E. In stock form the Cummins at 250-300HP will probably shred it. I don't think the 4L80e in stock form is any stronger, if as strong, than the Dodge 47RH and E's, and they seem to struggle with 300HP in stock form. My stock 235HP factory setting ate my 47RE in 119K. I know have a rebuilt 47RE with a bunch of goodies. You'll have to research what the 4L80E can handle in diesel applications and I would pay real close attention to what the 6.5GM TD guys are doing with theirs, their 4L80E upgrades could work well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2006
  8. afroman006

    afroman006 1/2 ton status

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    My girlfriend has a early 98 12 valve with a banks power pack on it and it never generates more than 20 psi daily driving but will get up to 35 prety easily when towing.
     
  9. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    the mileage on my motor is unknown... the trucks odometer (1989 d200 3/4 ton 2wd) showed 60k,,, the truck looked like it might have spun the speedo at least a couple of times, but had no major damage. Byron... not currently a member here yet.. whom I bought it from said it was a running truck when he parked it... and that the truck had blowby .... so thats why Im tearing it down... Im going to put it in a v3500 chassis that has a bb (fresh) and the truck has 50k miles on it.. so if Im going to do it Im going to make sure its reman'd before I go to the hassle of the conversion

    So far the motor is coming apart easily....with no broken pieces...and the requesite ton of grease that melted away under steam but I dont have the head or pan off yet...

    Some upgrades sound worthwhile... like O ringing the head...playing with turd=bos and injectors... maybe even matching the intake and exhaust.. since thats a freebie...

    What about cams and valvetrain? what should I look at...
    and is balancing and blueprinting worth it?

    Perhaps Ill revisit the all dodge drivetrain route... it certainly makes sense... and I HATE the tilt the p30 makes

    Id rather hang here but Im afraid Ill spend some time over at tdr and reregister there as a member again

    thanks everyone... good info and input

    cam
     
  10. afroman006

    afroman006 1/2 ton status

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    The way they designed the rod caps on the cummins blows my mind. I figure its to turn the load on the rod bolts into more of a shear load than a straight pull (dont know the techincal term). I would assume that has something to do with their durability. Thats kinda suprising to see 2 bolt mains on a cummins, I would have expected 4.
     
  11. afroman006

    afroman006 1/2 ton status

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    I like my idea better, you are wrong:shame: :haha:
     
  12. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Like Demon said, you approaching this build with your gas engine rebuilding experience. Throw all that info that you know for a gasser away on this build.

    Heck, on the larger OTR engines we don't even change the oil pump on an inframe rebuild!

    Once again, you don't need to balance, blueprint, port and polish, and change the cam with this engine.

    Rebuild it stock and just put larger injectors in it with a larger turbo and maybe some pump mods to match. You don't even need O-ring the head, it isn't neccessary.

    You say you want 220-240HP, but you are trying to make modifications that are required ONLY for 5-600HP.

    Lets put this in gas engine terms. Say you have a 350 chevy small block. You want to make 200HP with it. With that in mind you are trying to put a forged crank &rods, Forged pistons, big honkin' AFR heads, a different cam, Edelbrock RPM intake, and a 750cfm carb. You don't need all this to make 200HP out of a 350.....right?:wink1:

    Like I said, 240HP is not that much at all out of that 6BT cummins. Cummins themselves SET that engine at a HIGHER power level for agriculture applications than what you are after with "perfromance parts."

    All diesels have blow by, it's part of their nature. You need to check the compression of that engine and just completely inspect it. I bet it doesn't even need a rebuild.

    A fresh pump, injetors, turbo, and a valve adjustment and it will probably run just as good as after it was broke in.

    The Cummins is a completely different engine, you can't approach it with gas performance on the brain. I honestly think you are trying to overbuild the motor and you will also find that 220-240HP will be hard to build with biggger injectors and turbo. You can probably get that out of the stock compnents.

    With a larger turbo and different injectors it will probably push you near 300HP, which is perfect, and the stock long block laughs at that power level.
     
  13. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    excellent info for me bobby... many thanks.. also confirms what I learned at TDR last night

    premium stock rebuild
    intake and pump mods, better injectors
    run it
    cummins already has it figured out way better than I could

    Update to come as soon as I get the engine opened up....

    today Im building a gorilla engine stand for it,,, the one I had built for my big block looks whimpy comapred to what the cummins justifys.... so today is a shop day welding....


    any master engine kits out there I should look at.. other than the dealer (ouch spendy) or ebay (unknown quality)

    continued thanks

    cam
     
  14. rjfguitar

    rjfguitar 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Bingo! ;)
     
  15. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    just got the cummins manual... 65.00 ...ouch... but it appears to be the only reliable game in town

    A couple of conversion questions ... I may have to ask over a tdr.. but Im certainly more at home here...


    1) my motor had the 727 on it.... does anyone happen to know if the adapter (drivers side starter) is the same engine side adapter on the 2 and 4 wheel drives.. and if this adapter is the same one used on the later first gen series dodge overdrives ( I want to know if I should hang onto it or not if I should go all dodge)

    2) Any good reman tricks for the 47rh/205 version... and later re (stand alone kit?) if it still bolts to the 205.

    3) Anyone know the differences (spline and adapter) between the 205 stick and 205 dodge auto transfer cases ... 29 vs 31 spline??? and IIRC there was some reading that the auto transfer cases twisted splines.... but this is all fuzzy old memory... anyone know?

    I have a line on a gen 1 205 from a member here but its a stick case with no adapter.... are those swappable b/t stick and auto cases... and are the cases retrofit possible ... or does the manual case have to be bored like old vs new big bearing chevy 205's (did I confuse anyone?)



    thanks

    cam
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2006
  16. kennyw

    kennyw N9PHW Premium Member

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    I believe all Dodge NP205's use the same splines and Round bolt pattern. Should be interchangeable... then again... I don't know this, just second hand info I've read.
     
  17. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    Hey Cam
    as far as I know, the spline counts for dodge 205's are 23 & 29 spline.
    The earlier ones were 23, the 205's in heavy duty trucks are 29 spline.
    No difference in bearings because the size difference between the 2 is minimal and they are both male shafts.
    The female input shafts are the ones that need bigger bearings.
    IceMan
     
  18. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    Well I finshed the engine stand and got it painted in 45 degree weather... I made it from 5 inch 1/4 wall tubing and angle.... it didnt move when I put the cummins on it... I used 1200 pound cast iron wheels and it moves easily around the shop... It ended up a little high... Ill fab up some new longer mounts which will lower it by 6 inches... but its fine for now

    I removed some of the sub assemblies... getting a better look at the motor... it is a think of beauty and craftsmanship... still a little diry but one more trip around the steam cleaner and it will pass inspection

    I went to cummins today and got a price for a major rebuild kit..... non good guy off the street price retail was 1133.00 and change... anyone have direction where to get better pricing?

    Kenny.. thanks for the info... Im going to move slow.. I want to be sure Im buying the right stuff and not get taken because Im ignorant (right now)... learning curve gets sharp when you pull out the wallet!!!!

    It will have to sit for a couple of days while I finish up my welding trailer.... then Ill tear into it some more

    thanks all

    cam

    cummins engine and stand 1.JPG

    cummins engine and stand 2.JPG
     
  19. CrewCab59

    CrewCab59 1/2 ton status

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    Cummins rebuild and power

    Cam,
    On your Cummins rebuild as you like (mileage)?It won't hurt to freshen it up.
    Power up grades.
    1). get 60hp Bosch injectors.
    2). add more fuel and turn up pump.
    3). get a open airfilter assy.
    4). change your turbo housing to a 14 or 12, stock should be a 16cm .
    5). advance your timming a little ,factory retards themto much.
    6). they do make cam's ,will lower EGT's ,more fuel mileage, spread out torque range.
    7). your down pipe should be 3'' and run 4'' after the t-case back.(can't get a 4'' passed the 205's t-case without crushing the pipe) .

    I just got done working on a guy's 1st gen truck and he loves the power it has ,he was going to sell it before I worked on it.

    The power that you want and more.

    Intercooler use a dodge 1st gen on 81-87 GM trucks and a dodge 2nd gen on 88-91 Gm trucks.Also the intercooler require no body lifts to fit.

    Radiator your need a 2 core to use a stock dodge fan.

    CrewCab59
     

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