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Can anyone properly answer my question????

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by hi pinion, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    HEEEEELLLP!!!!!!! Ok, ive been picking at this for over 2 weeks now, heres what i have,,,,AGAIN......:confused:

    1985 chevy blazer with computer carb , in california. Its a dailty driver,must pass smog laws.

    The thing is, i hate that computer carb junk,ive put on a new motor,rebuilt the carb, etc,and it still just dosent run the way i want it too. So im ripping it oput and starting over again completly.

    WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS FOR FUEL DELIVERY?????????

    I was told TBI is just ok, and it can be done with some work ,, i have to have all the stuff from a 89-91 blazer including the computer and switch it over. But the gains might not be worth the swap.:confused:

    I was also told that TPI (tuned port injection is killer, works killer) and its night and day difference between both the carb and tbi....
    THAT might be something i want to do. Also , another member said there was even another setup i could use off a camaro.And that its even better than the TPI.(cant remember the name of it)

    There is only one other member on here i have found that has the TPI on there 84ish,,,85ish blazer here in Ca,and thats Tunedportk5,,and he is awaiting results from the referee,to see if its ok with the laws..... I am willing to spend good coin on the setup,even if its a newer style aftermarket type.I just want to know ,,,,I am getting ready to break down the whole top end off my my motor, but i have no idea where to start. I need part numbers, i need people here in California to please chime in and tell me what worked for you,i need to see what is legal, from people who have had it done. Its a new goodwrench 350 motor,completely stock. I am wanting to increase horsepower on the top end with the fuel delivery.

    So........is there anyone out there that can help me????? Like with part numbers etc? I was thinking the first thing to do would be to actually talk to a referee, but, there has to be someone out there who has done this.

    Comeon guys help a brother out. Im a little dense so please explain with care :grin:
    Something similar to ryan Bs setup would be nice mabey.Also, does the sweet stuff from the 90s style camaros work in our 85ush blazers???? Like a direct swap?

    HEEEEPPP!!!! Where do i start?????????
     
  2. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Another write up would be good ,,for the second gen type trucks :)
     
  3. 84gmcjimmy

    84gmcjimmy 1 ton status

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    RyanB. has TPI i think. PM him ?
     
  4. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Yeah, so far ive tracked down only like 3 members,,,, tunedprtk5, ryanb, and burbin or. But ryan bs setup is smog exempt, same pricipal, but dosent really apply :) anyone else living in smog hell that sucessfully ran this system? Im getting geared up to just start over ........... check this out guys, its bad ass, he said it made 100 more hp right out of the gate. I want to see what else is out there though. There has to be more than just one person with the TPI http://community.webshots.com/user/tunedportk5 Jacob
     
  5. eclipse

    eclipse 1/2 ton status

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    Move outta cali ;)
     
  6. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Ive gotta say..............

    I finally got ALL the answers i needed, after all this time ck5 came through again!!!!
    After a concentrated discusion with one of the members here (thanks again 4x4 High),,,,,

    i finally found the answeres i was looking for. No wonder the ones who have installed this, diddnt say anything. Its a little involved.

    Step 1 .... buy a whole brandnew setup from street performance , (identical to the 90-92 camaro style, for 2500.00 bucks , and bolt it in. Step 1 was not an option for me, because 2500 i dont have :grin:

    im going this way........


    First, go out and find a decent looking running mabey wrecked Camaro (90-92)

    Step 2 go find a 90-92 camaro,,,350 or 305 v8,,,(v-6 wont work)get yer wrench, and screwdriver, and take everything you see on the top end of the motor,,take the manifold, take the runners, take the plentum, take the throttle body,,,,take the distributer,,,take the computer (the numbers on the computer should read as,, 1227730)

    Step 3 ,,,Take the waterneck,,,take the fuel pump,,, take the tv cable,,,(most had the 700r4, just like some of our blazers have) take it from the camaro,,


    Step 4,,,Take the intake manifold (the new tpi one)to a machine shop to be done up to fit the 85- style gm goodwrench 350 motor,because they will need machining to fit.

    Step 5 you may need a in tank fuel pump witch is no big deal, you need one of those, or you can take the one from the camaro ( i think)

    Step 6 after the intake is machined, install,,,,also install the tbi .

    Step7 from what i have gathered, you just install everything (including the computer) into your blazer ,, everything listed above.

    Also, the wiring harness might be a POS from the camaro, so go get a new one. And dont buy the painless, because its supposed to be a PITA :grin: ,,,instead buy the one from street performance http://www.hotrodlane.cc/

    Its 500 ,,but its supposed to be worth the money.

    Step 8 ,, turn the damn thing over and see what happens. !!!!! :grin:

    Also you will need to speak with a referee from the state ( not at a smog shop) to tell them what you are doing.

    Parts list,,,,,,=


    Parts 1 ,,, however much the tpi is

    Parts 2 wiring harness ,,odds and ends, gaskets, etc, 500 mabey 600 in total with gaskets and stuff.

    Fuel pump? ???$$$$ ??? ,,,also you can use the existing fuel lines with a stock 350

    I think if a person looked hard enough they could find a tpi for 2-300 bucks.

    All prices are just ballpark. The new tpi is 2500,and i dont think thats complete. So with a used one, just paint it up, or powdercoat it, (or leave it) because it should be the exact same tbi as the new 2500 dollar one. You might save money doing it this way, or you might not, i dunno, if i dont find the camaro one, ill just go with the 2500 one and call it a day.

    This is the lamest wright up of all time,this is just my plan right now,,, but, adding 100hp withought touching the bottom end of the motor, is something i am GOING to do. I cant wait,, im hunting for stuff ASAP.

    I see ryan b did a write up on the first gen style trucks, ill do one for the 2nd gen style when im done. The computer carb is the lamest suckkiest thing GM ever did, but i plan on changing that right away. No more bog down .

    In addition,thanks again 4x4 high for working me through this, it seems pretty involed, but Waaaay worth it in the long haul. :grin: :grin: :grin: Jacob:grin: :grin: :grin: Im good to go now. Thanks dude!!
     
  7. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    I live in an emissions county here in AZ. I have TPI on my 85K5. I don't know how much more strict your tests are there but I passed emissions last year with my TPI setup installed.

    We have to pass an idle sniffer test, dyno sniffer test, visual test (cats, vacuum canister, vacuum lines), gas tank test (holds pressure), and gas cap test (holds suction).

    They do not test to see if the EGR valve is functional or not. I passed my test without my EGR system being functional. The TPI did make the motor run a hell of alot better and it ran clean enough on the sniffer test to get me a 2yr tag. With the carb I never was able to get a 2 year tag. Not even with a brand new motor and rebuilt carb.

    When I went into get my emissions tested I did tell them I swapped over to fuel injection. They asked what year the system was from so I told them 85 (TPI was available in 85) even though my system actually came from an 88. I did not want them to test me against the 88 standards.

    If your inspections are more indepth and thorough then I can't really help you much. My truck is just to the point where it will pass the Maricopa County, AZ standards. Our standards are pretty high from what I have been told, but can't confirm that for sure. I snuck my truck threw without them being wise to alot of things that would make me fail. Mostly because the testers are not well educated to know anything about the systems, just how to do the test.

    Harley
     
  8. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    I think whoever said that you will pick up 100hp is smoking crack. Everything I read about TPI said increases were 20% roughly. Since a stock GM crate motor is around 250 I would not expect to pick up more then 50hp, if that.

    Whoever said the Painless Wiring Harness is a POS is also on a coffee break with the person above hitting the pipe. I run a Painless harness in my truck and I think it is a damn good harness. The directions are pretty good, customer service is very good, and the product is good as well. I would recommend them highly. It may not be as bling bling or quite as nice as an S&P harness but it is half the price.

    If you honestly think that you will have a 100% plug and play setup with TPI, especially a pieced together system then you are in for a world of hurt when you have to figure out why your truck won't run. I made the same mistake and jumped into the swap without doing my homework and it was anything but plug and play. Now that I know what is going on it is easier to do the swaps but running blind will get you in trouble.

    If you get a system from a 305 car you will need new injectors for the setup. The 305 injectors are not rated for enough flow to support the 350 motors.

    Don't get into this swap thinking that TPI is going to be a cheap answer to your problems. It won't be. It will nickel and dime you ALOT, especially if you get all the spare parts you will need to keep in the truck incase something fails on you.

    The cheapest external fuel pumps are $80 each. The good pumps are $150 each, and you need 2 pumps (1 for a spare). MPFI rated soft fuel line is $5-6 per foot. FI hose clamps are more expensive the normal hose clamps. Spare ECM will run you from $50-100+. If you need to have chips burned that is more $$$. If you get a used system then you will basically want to rebuild it and keep the used parts for spares. TPI is not a cheap propostion if you plan to do it right.

    I spent about $1200 when it was all said and done to get my TPI in my truck with all the spare parts I needed to have. This may sound ok to you but I got my setup from a friend of mine who gave me a SMOKING deal. The system had already been referbished quite a bit and already had a Painless Harness with it for $250. That is a once in a lifetime deal that I wouldn't ever expect to find again. Asetup like the one I got should sell for a minimum of $500 on a cheap day when someone was hurting for cash bad.

    TPI is great, but do your homework. That is the best advice I can give you, do your homework.

    Harley
     
  9. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Oh common now with the everyones on crack stuff. Also i mabey should revise what i said. .... Explanation,,, he said the 500 was better, and a PITA,,, NOT a POS , and hes not smoking crack because he owns and opperates a full blown machine shop, and knew EXACTLY what i needed. Also

    Anything that sounds like its rookie stuff was probobly from me, because im basically just passing on the message and advise he gave to me, and its MY fault. He did say that about the 305 injectors , i just forgot to put it down. Its a relay message. I dont know a what any of this is yet. He did say it would take only 2 days to do it all though . :grin:

    BTW COOL!!! Do you recommend the junkyard way over the new one? And its NOT that easy to get right as far as getting it to run right? I dont know anything about it yet, im still checking it all out man. :grin:
    What are the pitfalls i should watch out for? Is it worth it to buy the used one, and then work the buggs out? Its nice to talk with someone who has one finally.

    Oh, and BTW,,,ive seen them setup smog checks in the middle of the road here in cali, test your ass right there on the side of the road.If you fail your gone. That is why it is so important . I am wondering if i should look for a used performance type TPI instead of the camaro, but now that i have some more info, it should do pretty good. Anything you would like to add would be cool, thanks for the time , Jacob :)
     
  10. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Im still learning....:)
     
  11. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    Ok, the smoking crack thing is a little over the top but you get the point. I honestly believe that you will not pick up anywhere near 100hp gain, especially on a stock motor. I believe the stock power rating for a camaro with TPI vs a carb was 40hp.

    I believe that TPI is worth the hassle as long as you are willing to do the work and research. If you have a tendency to 1/2 a$$ stuff or skimp out (not saying you do, cause I don't know you, just a generalization) then I would not do the swap.

    I am a fan of the junkyard method, but don't settle for anything. You may have to wait your turn to find a good setup that is worth the price. Don't just buy the first thing that comes along. The best option is to fine a system on a running car that has been wrecked or something like that. That way you know the system is in ok working order.

    If you do the swap do it right. Have the injectors cleaned and flow matched. Get a good fuel pump. Decide whether you want an internal or external pump. I recommend internal if possible, but I run external and it works ok. If you go external get good pumps. My cheap MSD pumps are junk IMHO. Get a Walbro or similar. I have one waiting on the MSD to fail.

    Decide whether you want MAF or MAP TPI. I run MAF but alot of people like MAP. MAP is a good choice since you have a stock motor and you can find out the cam grind to have a chip burned for it properly if you need to. I don't know what cam is in my motor so the MAF system worked for me. It was also the way my system was sold to me.

    The swap can be done in 2 days if you get all the prep work done first and really hit the swap hard. Helpers are a big plus especially if they have experience with motors and fuel injection. The biggest thing for me was the fuel system. It wasn't that hard but it did take time to get my fuel pump mounted, fuel filters (2, one before the pump one after) return line plumbed up, finding the Saginaw to AN fittings, running the MPFI softline where I needed to, and running my fuel lines where they need to be to meet the fuel rails of the TPI.

    It is the little things that will get you. Having to install the knock sensor which means having to drain the engine block. Figuring out how to mount the Oil pressure switch and oil pressure sender. Getting the wiring harness situated correctly and how you want it. Getting the wiring harness inside the cab, mounted, and wired up. Getting the sensors and relays situated inside the cab along with the ECM.

    Swapping manifolds, distributors, finding TDC on the motor, getting the accessories installed, getting the raditor hose to work, swapping out the TV cable, mounting the throttle cable, you need to remove the standard fuel pump and install the blockoff plate, etc, etc, etc.

    I used Lokar for the throttle cable, and recommend there cable. My water neck is cut down and I used a radiator hose from a 91 Z28. I do not run AC on my truck so that makes the swap a little easier.

    Another possibly big issues is bolts. If you don't get all the bolts for the manifold you have to go to GM and pay out the a$$ for them, get a kit that is $$ or figure out what size the bolts are.

    If your motor is the older style 85 heads then you need to have the manifold reamed out to match the later heads. You can do it by hand but I will tell you it is the biggest PITA of the hole swap. Take the manifold to the machine shop and have them do it. It is worth whatever they charge you to save the aggrivation. People recommend that you use angled washers to help seal the manifold over the new holes. It would be nice but I don't have them and I don't have a problem. Another guy I wheel with has TPI and doesn't have them either. If you can get them it is a good idea to but I didn't bother.

    There is lots more I am sure I am forgetting but I need to go to bed. Gotta work early. If you have any more questions feel free to PM me if you like. If you search threw my posts there is alot of info about TPI and my swap.

    TPI is 100% worth the hassle. Now that I have it I would never consider running a carb again.

    Harley
     
  12. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    Cool :) yeah ill be sending pm messages , thats for sure it sounds like a PITA now. Thanks man.Jacob:)
     
  13. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    There is a lot of stuff, and some of it has been covered.

    First off, if I've got my years right, '85-86 TPI manifold would save you the machine work of the later manifolds. Added expense yes, but ebay or thirdgen.org classifieds (a great place to look for stuff) would probably yield one for a decent price.

    I don't like external fuel pumps, but thats me. To use the Camaro pump, you'll need to get an '87-91 *truck* TBI sending unit, and new they aren't cheap. Not at all. $175 or so last I checked. But that's your only option for in-tank pumps. The pumps themselves are nearly universal...camaro's, cadillacs, you name it, similar vintage almost all are the same, so very common on ebay, etc. The pump I've got is something like 70PSI from a Cadillac as a for-instance.

    Fuel system is a pain. I ended up being able to use the fuel lines off a TBI K5, (lots of hand bending and made a few steel brackets to keep it secure) and used some of the braided lines off of other stock GM EFI applications to connect the hard lines to the fuel rails. In everything I do, I either match or exceed GM's own installation...it may not end up pretty, but the last thing you want in a swap like this are problems...tracking issues down can be a pain, and worst of all, if you half ass the fuel system with that kind of pressure, you WILL have problems, and you can't afford to have fuel spraying out of the lines at 70PSI. You'll hear nickel and dime a lot...adapting the fuel stuff is pricey. AN fittings and adapters are not cheap. The special GM fittings are not easy to work with, as you can't just buy or have some made up for the most part.

    MAF is ok, but if starting out, and you are willing to spend time if necessary, MAP is the way to go. MAF sensors are too expensive if they fail, and they do fail. MAP sensor is about $20, MAF is over $100, and that may be a low number. The MAP install is cleaner both in wiring and intake tract. I'm a believer in cold air intake, MAF makes this more difficult as it adds another connection. From personal experience, I say go MAP, this coming from a guy running MAF.

    Runners/plenum all years will bolt up to each other, so an '85 base will work with '90 runners for instance. Cold start injector deletion is a big plus, thats an '88+ improvement IIRC. Don't forget, anything '88+ (again IIRC the year, but easy to find out) will have VATS, which REQUIRES a new chip to bypass it, no ifs ands or buts. Well, you can try to adapt it to the truck, but no. :)

    I say use stock wiring. Go buy the service and electrical manual for the year camaro setup you end up with. I guess anymore I'm not so adamant that you need the truck manual. You can figure all that out yourself. With stock wiring, it will force you to learn whats what, you know if it came from a running vehicle it will work, and absolutely the most important factor, you will be able to use the stock troubleshooting flowcharts. (For instance, check out cranknorun on that page) Alternator wiring is different on the TPI stuff from the trucks, at least '87+ Camaro/Firebird. As you can see, my setup isn't what I'd consider "clean", although it's better than it was when those pictures were taken, but it works, which is my criteria...function before form. Not a whole lot of help from those pictures, but I can take more if wanted.

    The stock fuse panel approx. '84 up in the trucks makes the swap much easier. (any blade fuse panel will probably work though, they all seem to have some spare terminals, just '84-ish have more) With the stock Camaro wiring manual, you will see which leads off the TPI setup need power, and at which times, along with how many amps the fuses need to be for each. The ECM needs constant batt voltage, the rest are pretty much all ignition switched. Need to run an auxillary fuse panel to fuse and feed each lead seperately, (again, because not all are ignition 12V switched) believe there are 4 fuses needed without electric fan, you can buy a 6 fuse block for about $6. Look at a stock truck fuse panel about '84+, you will see all the empty terminals along the top row...those are where you will draw power from to the aux. fuse panel.

    IMO the most important consideration of the swap is the fact that if you pull the system off a running car, and put it in the truck complete, it will run. That is very important. Taking shortcuts or removing things will make for some hair pulling moments. In your case, thats not an option anyways, you'll need everything out of the car, EVAP, AIR, etc., so no "deletion" for you. Of course, individual differences like the engine itself (heads, compression, cam, etc) ARE going to influence how it runs...burning your own chip is a necessity IMO. Even on a bone stock L98, documented increases over stock, with no changes BUT PROM tuning, are roughly 15HP and ft-lbs. Any mechanical changes over stock are likely to increase the amount of "hidden" power available from PROM tuning.

    I don't buy the 100HP statement either. Stock TPI just doesn't breathe well enough to support making that kind of difference, espeically at the upper end where big HP numbers happen. Monstrous low end torque is what you should be expecting. If you want big HP numbers, you are talking big $$ with things like the superram, etc. Of course your heads are going to hurt even that idea, but you probably understand the whole "package deal" concept of making power...everything has to be matched.

    If you can, you will want to start with a 350 vehicle. You need 350 injectors, you need 350 knock sensor, 350 ESC, and so on and so on. Injectors alone will run you $200+ if you need new ones, and you should replace them all at once apparently. I'm running a stock 305 MAF PROM with my engine, but that is with all the 350 specific hardware. Not perfect running, but runs no worse than it did with a carb either. I've got PROM tuning stuff now, when I get the axle replaced, (and digital speedo, etc) PROM tuning is next up.

    thirdgen.org is going to be one of your best friends. Your only issue with a CA referee should be whether or not you can put a car engine in a truck. Since the 350 was available both in the car and truck, as long as car engines can be put in trucks (and I believe that is ok, since the emissions are tougher on cars, not more lenient) then you will be golden, since you know ALL emissions stuff from the Camaro needs to be fitted to the truck.

    What more is there? If you really want to swap to TPI, and understand it will cost money, and take time to do right/without mistakes/understand everything, make sure it will work in CA, and dive in.

    I'm sure most here are willing to help you in any way possible, but there are a few things to consider. First off, as you know, most of us don't have to deal with CA emissions inspections. I'm sure my truck will pass a sniffer no problem, but even if it does, I don't have a visual to worry about. Second, there will be a LOT of technical/operational questions you will have, and thirdgen.org searches, along with the stock F-body manuals, will answer those better than asking on here, because a lot of it is lengthy, but contained in the manual or on thirdgen.org.

    Now that I've done the swap, I don't think it is that difficult. But starting out, no one on hand to guide my way? It was daunting. But as with everything, you get familiar with it and it all makes sense eventually. Wiring seems to be the main thing that scares people, but it's a necessary "evil" with EFI, so you might as well understand it.

    I paid $500 for the TPI specific stuff (base, runners, plenum, wiring, ecm, distributor, so on) but the replacement cap/rotor, spark plugs, wires, sending unit, pump, fuel lines, additional wiring, and so on and so on took money, and more importantly, TIME to do the way I wanted it. Mine is done perfectly, that is, the way *I* wanted it, if that makes sense. Not that my ideas/execution are for everyone, but I am 100% happy the way things are going. (and yes, that means it's never done hehe)
     
  14. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    How come i wait 2 weeks for a good answer, and then everybody and there brother just pours all this stuff at one?? :grin: LOL , you guys are good, ill have enough in here to study up for a while. At least now i know who has the tpi,and where to go in time of need. Thanks all ,,Jake :)
     
  15. R72K5

    R72K5 Banned

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    why dont you just put a non EST carb on ??
    EFI systems have their horrors too, PITA
    and just trying to convert to EFI

    man...


    good luck
     
  16. tunedportk5

    tunedportk5 1/2 ton status

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    I swear I got at least a 100hp improvement when I swapped in the TPI and maybe it was because of the Quadajunk carb but it was a VERY big improvement.

    On my 84 the fuel lines were no big deal since there was already a main feed line and a return line stock on the truck. Then I ran the rubber fuel injection hose from where the stock pump was over to the metal lines for the tpi and use these fitting from summit (ACC-74730 one of those and AER-FCM1512 two of these). I installed a efi fuel filter on the frame by the TC since there was already some rubber line there that needs to be replaced with the efi line.

    I went with the intank fuel pump so I ordered a new tank and sending unit from gastanks.com but I think its cheaper to get them from LMC truck parts. Then I had the fuel pump from the donar car but it went bad sitting out of the tank so I bought a new pump and had to drop the tank again after putting 10 gals into the new tank to replace.
     
  17. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    i would like to know how everything goes on the 28th of this month with it, pm me with the info!!!! :)
     
  18. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    call air resources board... they were very helpful to me....
    (my post under the diesel forum sticky has all their contact info)
    you arent going to want to hear this but for the money it will cost just put a new edelbrock smog legal carb on and call it a day...

    cam
     
  19. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Can he get rid of the CCC system and still be smog legal? I would think that going to a "regular" carb would be considered regressing in emissions.
     
  20. hi pinion

    hi pinion 3/4 ton status

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    **PLUMBING THE WORLD**
    I actually looked for a re-pro carb a long tima ago, the thing is, nobody even makes one to my knowledge. (to be smog legal for ca)

    GM dealer says they dont even sell a new one,,,i have to have my old one rebuilt. :mad:

    If i could find one, i would do that instead. But i looked, i just could not find anything. :confused:
     

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