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Can someone please explain all this to me, i know nothing about audio

Discussion in 'Audio' started by K5silverado05, Jun 27, 2001.

  1. K5silverado05

    K5silverado05 Registered Member

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    ok just some basic stuff about car audio, because i know nothing. lets say i got a RF punch 100.2 (im reading this outta crutchfield) and its RMS power is 25x2 @13.8v, the bridged is 100x1 and peak Power is 50x2, does this mean that it will drive to speakers, say subs, at 25 watts or one sub at 100watts, if so whats the deal with the 50x2, could someone just explain this kinda thing, i have no idea what to look for fer my blazer. i think i want two subs out back, around 12", two speakers right next to the rear seat, some tweeters up front, some speaker on the doors and maybe some in the dash, what do i need, i also mostly seem to hear good things about Rockford, MTX and i like the sony head units, what would i need?
     
  2. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    ok the punch 100.2 is rated at 25 watts x 2 channels at a 4 ohm load.. now at 50x2 is rated at a 2 ohm load stereo setup. It is bridgable (taking both channels and makeing it one) and able to push out 100 watts x 1 at a 4 ohm load (the amp will see it as a 2 ohm load) it can not run 2 ohm bridged... this amp is way to small for what you are wanting to do. If you are wanting to run a set of 12's in the back of your truck then i would recommend something like the jl audio 250.1 amp. This amp is a mono block amp (one channel only) which will put out 250 watts x 1 channel. The neat thing about this amps is it doesnt matter what ohm load you put it at it will still put out 250 watts x 1 channel.... (also in order to get on the shelf for sale these amps have to test at over 20% more power output then rated.. ie.. the 250.1 has to push atleast 300 watts to make it on the shelf).. this amp will run you right around 300 bucks.. as for you other speakers.. you want 2 in the back.. 2 in the doors, and 2 tweeters up front in the dash.. i would recommand putting something like a 6 1/2 in the back and goin with what are called componant (separates) for you doors and running the tweeters up on the dash or in the corners of the windshield... By running the rear speakers off the radio and the seperates off the radio the radio you will be able to keep costs down.. As for the subs you should use.. well there are alot out there that are good.. best bet would be to spend a little more quality and go with jl audio, fosgate, alpine type r (not type s), etc... Also if you are looking into the sony explod line then there are a couple of things you should know.... I have heard from many friends and others that i talk to in the industry that they are not worth the effort of getting..They (peps i have talked to) have had to use the warranties on them around 3 or 4 times in under 6 months... Personally i like the alpine cd players, or kenwood exlon series.. as a side note to the alpine cd players.. most of them have cd changer controls and hook right up to the alpine cd changers, all you do is run one cable from the radio to the cd changer and that is all... makes it really nice and simple.. I hope this helps you out and if you need any other info or if you need me to explain something else to you feel free to post or pm me... Im more then happy to help

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  3. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I have had good luck with Pioneer head units. I really like mine. I second that on the Kenwoods too, they're good.

    I've also got a pair of Fosgate 12" Punch's and with the new amp I just got a hold of they POUND.

    Good luck with your setup. I wish I had a Blazer or Sub so I could really have a stereo! No space in the truck!

    Tim
    '84 Chevy K10, lifted, loud, fast, and 3/4 ton axles
     
  4. K5silverado05

    K5silverado05 Registered Member

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    thanks prem, good info, yeah ive heard good things about alpine and kenwood, and i like the changer thing, so tweeters up front, component in the door, 6 1/2 by the rear seat and subs in the rear, where would you mount the subs, i heard to put them in boxes and fire them towards the tailgate, but that might take up some cargo space, and what about when the rear is full of my crap, will it take away sound, i was thinking about putting the subs in the rear panels facing each other, but i heard that was a bad thing possibly, whats your opinion you seem to know your stuff, thanks for the info i can rule a lot of stuff out now, you the man
     
  5. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    Your subs have got to be in a box or they'll sound crappy. And you've just got to give up some space if you want subs. Sealed boxes can be smaller than a ported box so if you want to save some space, buy subs made for a small sealed box and you'll be better off.

    Tim
    '84 Chevy K10, lifted, loud, fast, and 3/4 ton axles
     
  6. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Let's be sure to clarify what you mean about those side panels.....

    It is absolutely TRUE that you need to put subs in a strong box....so cutting a hole in a real trim panel and dropping in a sub will not be cool.

    To demonstrate why, consider this analogy: Try to jump as high as you can while standing in place on a hard floor vs. standing on a trampoline. The hard floor provides a solid platform, so all the power coming from your legs is helping you to get up into the air. On a trampoline, as soon as you apply power to you legs...the trampoline deforms and absorbs the energy. You'll be lucky to get up into the air at all!!

    The same is true on subwoofer enclosures. With a sealed box (let's keep it simple for now) all of the air inside the box is providing a good platform for the speaker to "push against" and get maximum excursion (LOUDNESS!!!). If the box is not sealed well, or if the panel is flexible and bends under the pressure from the speaker...you have that "trampoline" effect. The speaker is really moving a lot, but there really isn't very much LOUDNESS!!

    The point I would like to make is that you CAN use the side compartments for subs if you want....but you can't use the trim panels as the enclosure. You will have to either build a solid enclosure out of fiberglass, or a really custom-contoured enclosure out of MDF to fit in those areas. I don't want to give everyone the impression that if you want subs, you have to give up your storage space. It is possible to get bass using other "trickier" techniques.

    The tradeoff is, of course, time (and time is money![​IMG]). It will take longer to build "stealth" subs into a K5. If it is important to you, perhaps the effort and expense is justified. If not, stick with a simple box and find a way to get used to it.

    Good luck.

    -Greg72
    ...still no stereo installed, but the equipment is piling up!!! [​IMG]
     
  7. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    Ok as for the facing of the subs... it doesnt matter where you mount the subs or what direction they are facing.. Subs are what is called omni-directional.. meaning.. unlike tweeters and mids you can face them forward or backwards and it will sound the same... what make some people think facing them backword sound better is because of the sound wave hits you.. basically if you move yourself around a little you will find what people call sweet spots.. expecially in home audio.. where the bass seems to be alot louder and harder.. but you move to another spot and you might not really feel of hear anything.. The sweet spots is where the sound wave is hitting you.. As for facing them towards each other.. that really isnt a problem also.. I was sent a link awhile back on some coustom enclosures.. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://community.webshots.com/album/11399224pScOQbHfWN>http://community.webshots.com/album/11399224pScOQbHfWN</A>
    You can see what i mean on the encloseures...Or if you really wanted to you could to a band-bass enclosure (subs inside of box with ports letting sound (air) out.. and then you could put stuff on top and around it.. now i dont recommend that but you could do it.. The bandpass is a good box design.. limited to whatever freq. you want the ports at.. that is the down side... personally if you are worried about space then look into the link i sent you and go with 10's or 12's... 12's will give you more low end boom.. where 10's will give you a more accurate sound.. if you listen to rock then 10's will be better but if you want to go out and play and go boom then use 12's.. they are really close in sound and you might never really notice the accuracy of the 10's but you will notice the 10's can not produce as much as the 12's... Subs compress the air inside of the vehicle to make it loud and what not.. so the larger the subs the more air it can more compressing the inside of the truck... same goes with the size of the subs.. 4 10's have total of 40 in. of cone surface where 4 12' have 48 in. of cone surface.. more cone surface more compression.. but 12's will take more air space inside the box the the 10's will.. just something to think about... i dont know how your time/money issue is on this setup... If i had an idea i could detail out alot more and help you get started in the right direction..

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  8. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch 1/2 ton status

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    Well Prem beat me to it [​IMG], those customs are ones that I made up... they work pretty good but could use a bit more space for the 12" RF DVC's I have. I figure I'm gonna make a new set w/ a bit more air space in them or possibly go down to a 10" sub in each. I also think the amp upgrade will work out nicely to improve the clearity of the bass. I forget whose door speakers those were, but he's on CK5 here and he said he did exactly as described... MDF w/ some padding and carpet over them.

    -Mikey
    1987 Chevy K5 Blazer- 350 TBI
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.geocities.com/milnerlives_2000/blazer.htm>http://www.geocities.com/milnerlives_2000/blazer.htm</A>
     
  9. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    capt. you need to try and use polly fill before you go and make new boxes... it really cheap and you can get it at most fabric stores... try that with the amp and see what you think.. then go from there...

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  10. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Actually, in terms of calculating speaker surface area you need to do a little more math than just adding the diameters together. Here is a table that shows the total suface area of subwoofers based on the speaker diameter, and the number of subs used:

    # of Subs....Diameter.....Total SQIN
    1.................10".................79
    1.................12"................113
    2.................10"................157
    1.................15"................177
    2.................12"................226
    3.................10"................236
    4.................10"................314
    3.................12"................339
    2.................15"................353
    4.................12"................452

    This will help you decide how many speakers of a given size you will need. The other thing to consider is that many of the speaker manufacturers now are building subs with HUGE excursion capability....this is the spec called "XMAX" to compare "apples to apples" you should take the SQIN numbers in the chart above and multiply them by the XMAX spec for each speaker you are considering to get a total "cubic inches of displacement" value. It is possible that a long-excursion 10" sub, could actually give you more displacment (SPL) than a more conservatively designed 12" sub. Just something else to consider....

    -Greg72
     
  11. blazingjesse

    blazingjesse 1/2 ton status

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    it's simple, all that crap they put into the magizines is means nothing, on most amps there is a fuse on them, mine is a 25amp fuse. there is different amps. Mine is electronic so it makes allot of heat, this heat takes away half of you amps, so now i have 12.5 amps or around 160 watts. This goes for all electronic amps with fuses. There are the digital, mono amps now that are awesome but cost $$$$, they don't make heat and you can hook up to 10 woofers on one.

    as for subs, i depends what you want in your music, if you want a big continous buzz then go for two or more, otherwise if you want clarity in your bass go with one big one.

    The only way you can be happy with your choice in is to take you ride to a stero shop and try out different types and see what sounds good , then make your choice.
     
  12. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Not sure I agree (or even understand) most of Jesse's comments, but I do agree with his last sentence...[​IMG]

    Listen to as many systems as you can, in vehicles as similar to your own as you can. Then you will get a feel for how much power, how many speakers, etc. that you will need to achieve what sounds good to YOU!

    Big, noisy trucks will require more power and speakers to overcome road noise than a nice quiet luxury car. If you like your music LOUD....then plan on even MORE power and perhaps even more, (or larger speakers).

    Believe it or not, this is a lot of fun. Maybe not when you are first learning and everything is confusing. But later on as you get more experience and learn what sounds good to your own ears, you can really design and tweak your system to give you a very rewarding sonic experience..... [​IMG]

    Have Fun.

    -Greg72
     
  13. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    i was giving a basic reply to the surface area part... just something to help those that dont know alot about it.. Easy to remember.. easy to figure up...

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  14. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I hear ya Prembird...no criticism of you, you definitely do your part to further people's understanding on audio, as I also try to do.!!!! [​IMG]

    After looking at my own post, I've decided to give up on installing a single 15" sub, and am going with (2) 12" subs.....More Square inches of displacement!!!! I spent half a day fabbing up some pretty "stealth" side pods for the subs to fit in the rear quarter panel areas. I am hoping to build them in MDF tomorrow.....so maybe I'll post a few pics.

    Later,

    -Greg72
     
  15. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    I would like to see the specs on the boxes.. what type of subs are you goin to use? Yea pics of boefore, during, and after would be kewl.. May help some peps out that dont know alot about it be able to see how something like this is done.... kinda like a walk threw... eheheheheh

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  16. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I was planning to use the JL Audio 12W6 subs (originally was going to be a single JL 15W6).

    The subs are going into the side quarter panels directly behind the front seats. The stuff that makes it challenging are the fact that the rollcage bar comes down and partially blocks that area, and the wheel well "hump" doesn't leave much room to get a very big box in there.

    I have managed to come up with a design that will get me the 1.25 cuft that the JL 12's are designed for....I am planning to use a sealed enclosure, though if I could I would refer to use a ported one (for the extra SPL)...unfortunately, the JL's need something like 2.25 cuft for the ported version and it's simply not possible to get that much space in that side panel.

    Imagine looking at the driver's side rear quarter panel from the inside. The wheelwell hump is about 12" inches tall, and has two angled sides of about 45 degrees each. There is about 6" of space between the top of the hump and the bedrail where the top bolts down. My idea is to create a box that continues the rear angle of the wheel well up higher so that I can use the free space over the top of the hump. (this is pretty useless space anyway) and then have the encosure follow the edge of the bedrail all the way forward until it gets to the rollcage mount. From there, the box would go straight down to the floor, and back around to the front side of the wheel well arch. If you imagine that shape.....it's sort of like the silouette of a "key". The cool thing about this box (if it turns out right) is that I can get rid of the uncomfortable bolt-on armrests on the rear seat, and the enclosure will become a nice wide armrest for the rear passengers. The other cool thing is that I am planning to cut a "bevel" where the speaker mounts so that it will still be easy to climb in-and-out of the back seat area without hitting your leg on the corner of a big speaker box.

    INSTALL NOTES:
    I spent a few hours yesterday playing with my new tablesaw, and a pile of 3/4" MDF. Some parts of the box design went smoothly, and some parts are now getting complicated.

    Follow this link to see some photos...

    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://community.webshots.com/user/gblanchette72>http://community.webshots.com/user/gblanchette72</A>


    This is going to be FUN!!!!!

    -Greg72
    '72 K5 with a 427BB and 1600W stereo....
    ...which one will you hear coming first?....[​IMG]
     
  17. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    have you check the clearance for the back of the sub.. the mounting depth... is there enough room without hitting the magnet on the enclosure... Also... if you could add a little more height to it tha would help also.. I would recommand using a grill over the sub just in case you get someone really clumsy in the back.. Also im not sure how the air space will work in that type of configuration.. being that about 1/3 of it is over the wheel well... but if you could raise the height about 1/2 in or so that will give you a better setup i believe... also if you use polly fill in it you can trick the sub into thinking you have a little more room then you do.. just a suggestion... i myself would prefer not to use polly fill but in some cases where there isnt much space then you do what you can...

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  18. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Prem,

    The magnet is definitely one of the toughest parts. The 12W6 is about 6.5" deep and the magnet diameter is about the same. It's always tough to build a "wedge" box for that reason, but I just keep tweaking the dimensions until it's right.

    As far as the shape of the box affecting the sound....we will have to wait and see. That little "pocket" in the enclosure may not give the same acoustic effect as a more traditional box shape. BUT as we all know, the only thing that matters is the SOUND. Sometimes things that look good on paper sound terrible, and things that don't look too smart on paper actually end up sounding pretty good!!! [​IMG]

    The thing I am really trying to accomplish is to integrate these pods as "stealthy" as I can. I will be curving the back edge of the box with the same curve that the wheel well has, and radiusing the other corners to smooth the look a bit more. The K5 is not a very "curvy" vehicle, so I'm not going to go too crazy. But when everything is carpeted....it should look like a subtly higher wheel well arch with a slightly bulged and angled trim panel up front.

    We'll see if I can actually produce this idea in my head....

    -Greg72
     
  19. Prembird

    Prembird 1/2 ton status

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    i will agree on the box part of it.. i have designed some really strange looking boxes that sound kick @ss and some basic ones that didnt come close to what it should have sounded like... Only way to find out is to build it... and if it comes out good... and sound really good you could probably make some money off of it from peps like qlogic or something.. you never know...

    Prembird
    [​IMG] <font color=blue> If it aint</font color=blue><font color=red> LOUD </font color=red><font color=blue> Then turn it </font color=blue><font color=red> UP</font color=red> [​IMG]
     
  20. Blazer79

    Blazer79 1/2 ton status

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    If you want quality and power, I recommend the following:

    Speakers: Choose your speakers wisely. First decide where you'll mount them, and what size will fit. My personal choice if 6x9 in the rear, 4-6" in the front and a pair of tweeters on top of the dash. Visit a good shop and take your time to listen to all their models. Ask them to turn of their EQs, or set their head units flat, since they could be fixing the sound of crappy speakers. No one can tell you which speakers to buy. That's your personal choice. Now that you have the speakers just keep in mind their watt rating, is that peak or rms (usually peak), and the ohm rating. Lets say for example that you choose a pair of 300w 6x9 for the rear and a pair of 150w 4" for the front. They are all 4ohm.

    Subwoofer:
    Again, you'll need to listen to different sub models. You have to observe which kind of box they're using in the test models. When you finally choose a model, make sure you know how many you want. That will depend on what you listened. Again in this case, note the watt handling capability, is it RMS or peak (usually RMS in subs) and ohm rating. Lets say you choose a pair of 10" subs that handle 200watt each at 4ohm.

    Sub Box (es):
    Finally you'll need a sub box. You can buy many types of boxes, but what most people recommend is a sealed box made of MDF. They are small and loud. Ported boxes are usually refered to as "one note wonders" and take more of your cargo space. You can make a custom one or buy an expensive Q-form or other fancy name ready to install. The most important factor here (besides the sub hole diameter) is the cubic feet capacity of the box. A 10" sub requires a certain amount of airspace inside the box. You'll have to check that spec when you decide on a certain sub brand, since they vary.

    Amps: My personal opinion here is to get a 4 channel amp that drives your 4 main speakers. You can get away moving the speakers with the head unit, but a separate amp will usually get you much better quality than any head unit can. Just compare the size of the amp and the heat dissipation possible with a large amp. Also, have you read where head units say "45x4"? That's peak power, so imagine how much RMS power they have. Stay away from cheap unknown brands that are usually advertised on ebay. In our example, our 4 main speakers advertise peak power (no 6x9 that I know of can handle 300w rms). So their max RMS power handling would be somewhere around 50-75RMS This means that a 75w RMS x 4 amp would suite us fine. It's better if the amp throws out more power than the speakers can handle than to have a smaller amp compared to the speakers. In this case, ohms are not important since all amps can handle 4 ohms.

    Now you need another amp for the subwoofer(s). There are different choices. You can get a bridgeable, multichannel amp, or you can get a mono amp. You must always know the ohm load capacity of the setting you're gonna use. In our example, if we choose a bridgeable multichannel amp that supports 4 ohms when bridged, we must be careful how we connect our subs. If we connect them in parallel, our subs will turn into a 2ohm load. This will overheat your amp and cause failure. If we connect them in series, they will become an 8 load, which is much safer for our amp.

    Finally just connect everything with high-quality cable, and ground all the amps in a common place. If your head unit doesn't have two pairs of outputs, don't use Y-cables to split the single pair's signal into the two amps. You'll blow fuses (it happened to me). Use a crossover or Eq instead.

    My personal experience is that I was able to build a system that sounds exactly as I liked. I bought everything cheaply online mostly on <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ubid.com>http://www.ubid.com</A>. Everything adds up to about $300. Head unit not included because I'm feeding a crossover with a portable MiniDisc as a theft deterrent. I'm very very happy with the way it sounds and everyone that's ever heard it always gives good comments.

    Whew! I got a little carried on, but I hope this helps.


    <font color=purple>//////
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://blazer79.coloradok5.com>http://blazer79.coloradok5.com</A></font color=purple><font color=black>
    Soon a 454 K5!!</font color=black>
    [​IMG]
     

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