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Crate install priming problem **UPDATE**

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by txbartman, Jan 21, 2002.

  1. txbartman

    txbartman 1/2 ton status

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    Long, but questions are at the bottom...

    Okay, the crate install this weekend had problems and the rig is still in pieces. There were many small issues, but no big deal. Those can be dealt with. But, the biggest issue is the oil pump and priming. Got a primer from the local Autozone. Because of the oil cooler, we decided to prime it with the engine installed.

    After we got the engine in, we hooked up the tool, connected it to a variable speed (max 2500RPM) pnuematic drill, removed a valve cover to check for priming. After about eight minutes with the drill at max speed, there was no evidence of anything coming from the pushrods. We stopped and I removed the tool. It had oil all up around the lower collar and appeared to be going right. We also loosened the filter to make sure it was doing something and, yes, the filter was full. We figured the delay could have just been from having to pump oil into the filter and fill it up as well as having to pump it through the cooler.

    We hooked it all back up again and started the drill back up. After a few seconds, the drill bound up and stopped (not much torque, which is fine). Removed the tool and the upper collar that is clamped by the distributor clamp had bound to the priming tool. We had to press it off and run the tool without it. (Maybe the big mistake) Put the tool back in and ran it at max RPM for another 12 minutes (20 minutes total). There was never any sign of oil from the pushrods. Removed the tool and noticed that the "key" in the bottom of the tool was rounded practically completely smooth. Put a screwdriver down toward the oil pump shaft and noticed it had a lot of play side-to-side. Thought we sheared something. Drained all the oil and it had a lot of small metal sparkle in it. Pulled the pan and it, too, had the metal shavings. The oil filter (after we cut it open) was also full. Pulled the pump and noticed that the top of the oil drive shaft was rounded it the middle.

    It looks like the tool didn't seat right. And, without the top collar, it tended to move some. The result was that it tore up the tool and the top of the oil drive shaft. I am ordering a new high volume pump from Summit today ($55). Don't want to mess with disassembling and cleaning the old one. Also orderin a new tool. Tavia makes one that is chromemoly steel. Crane makes one that is hardened steel. Which would be better?

    Second questions is how do I know for sure that I have a good seat? How long should it take to pump oil into the pushrods considering I have a cooler? Should I bypass the cooler on the initial priming effort? I don't want to screw it up again. I need y'all's input. I'm really bummed so far.

    **UPDATE**
    Well, I got a new pump, screen, and intermediate shaft and assembled it all last night. Also disassembled the old pump and, sure enough, it had lots of fine metal grit on the gears. I also got another priming tool from Autozone. Now I know the problem. The slotted end of the priming tool doesn't properly seat onto the intermediate shaft groove. It is too fat. So, as the pump encounters some resistance, the tool was just spinning on the slot, not turning the pump. This was eating the tool and the shaft.

    I will either take apart an old distributor and use that as a priming tool or get a piece of all-thread or square stock and grind a slot on one end and an way to attach the drill to the other or disassemble the tool and grind its slot down just a bit to make it seat properly in the shaft. Think I will check to make sure the distributor slot seats properly while I have it all out! Gonna give it a shot tomorrow night. Thanks for the advice so far.

    Brian
    Check out <a target="_blank" href=http://tx85gmcguy.alloffroad.com>My Jimmy</a> with all her projects!<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by tx85gmcguy on 01/22/02 08:39 AM.</FONT></P>
     
  2. chevyracing

    chevyracing 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    Brian,
    I don't recommend a high volumn pump, but you will see many arguments on that. When you order the pump make darn sure to order a new oil drive shaft, get the one that has a metal colar on it instead of the nylon sleeve that joins it to the pump. Don't forget to order a new oil pan gasket kit.
    While you have the pump off get a falshlight and look at where the pump mounts. You will see one hole for the oil to pass through, one hole for the retaining bolt, and another hole that looks like another oil passage hole, it should have a small freeze type plug in it. That could be a cause.

    This is doubtful, but another cause could be too much main bearing clearance. If the wrong bearings were used you are pushing oil out of the bearings.

    You need to have a strong high powered drill to prime and engine. For the oil to pump the lifters up and go out of the push rods is quite an adventure for the oil. Think about this. The cam turns twice as much as the crank, so does the distributor which is what drives the oil pump. At an idle you are doing about 800 rpm's, and the oild pressure is low, a drill does not turn a heck of a lot more than that. You need a HIGH speed drill.

    John

    Like to go sloppin' 'round in da mud in a rapid fashion....=)

    <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/albun31?&page=1>BLAZER PICS</a>
     
  3. chevyracing

    chevyracing 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    Oh yeah, you should be able to prime it with the cooler on. I have primed engines for about an hour and barely, if any oil reached the top of the pushrods. It is much easier for the engine to prime if it is rotating, but don't do that. The most important thing to get primed is the bottom end.

    The oil pump shaft will have side play, that is normal. If there is a gross amount of side to side sway the plastic colar probably broke of the shaft at the point where the shaft hooks to the pump.

    ALWAYS put the primer shaft on then hook the drill to it. If you are priming it installed in the truck I am sure things are tight with the firewall.

    Are you using an aluminum or stock intake. If aluminum make sure the rotating assemble on the primer did not contact the intake and mess up the distributor hole, heck even if you used a steel intake check it. If it did, HUGE oil leak on the way.

    Hope this helps.....

    John

    Like to go sloppin' 'round in da mud in a rapid fashion....=)

    <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/albun31?&page=1>BLAZER PICS</a>
     
  4. txbartman

    txbartman 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    The oil pump I am looking at is a Summit brand that comes with the oil pump drive shaft with steel collar and the pickup tacked on. This was easier than getting all the pieces and putting it together myself.

    Actually, the oil pump is driven by the cam via the distributor. The cam turns once for every two revs of the crank. The drill I am using is 2500 RPM. That should be sufficient. Should I feel some resistance when the drill is making the pump work? Or should it feel practically effortless?

    Brian
    Check out <a target="_blank" href=http://tx85gmcguy.alloffroad.com>My Jimmy</a> with all her projects!
     
  5. chevyracing

    chevyracing 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    Said it backwars, sorry. Late night. LOL

    John

    Like to go sloppin' 'round in da mud in a rapid fashion....=)

    <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/albun31?&page=1>BLAZER PICS</a>
     
  6. FWP

    FWP CRS

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    When I put my oil pump on a recent rebuild, I made sure there was some oil in the pump, to lubricate the gears, cause that's what makes your suction. I used the oil pressure gage as a monitor to tell whether the pump was working. I had 30 psi with a pnuematic drill running the pump. Hope that helps you.

    <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/75K5>http://coloradok5.com/gallery/75K5</a>
     
  7. speed_deed

    speed_deed 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    Hey Brian sorry your havening problems I know how excited you were. I hope everything works out from here on! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    '85 k-5 gmc jimmy 4x4 sierra classic. '84 k-5 gmc jimmy sierra. '70 cuda 440 6 pack executive edition shaker hood, steering column shift.
     
  8. txbartman

    txbartman 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    Minor setback. I am getting the new oil pump and priming tool in the next couple of days. Plan to be back out there at the truck on Wednesday. Will get the passages and all cleaned out and try it again. Plan to "pre-load" the filter and the oil pump. Will hook up enough electrics to power the oil pressure guage. Then will prime just enough to get a pressure reading (a minute or two). Then that is it. Will get the bracketry on the front of the motor, drop in the distributor, install the plugs and wires, and fire it up.

    Minor setback. She will scream soon enough! Thanks for the thoughts, though!

    Brian
    Check out <a target="_blank" href=http://tx85gmcguy.alloffroad.com>My Jimmy</a> with all her projects!
     
  9. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Re: Crate install priming problem

    To answer one of your questions, yes, there should be a significant amount of resistance when you run the drill. I was actually surprised at how much force it takes to turn a stock GM oil pump the first time I primed an engine that way! [​IMG] It will give a standard drill a pretty good workout.

    Packing the gears inside the pump with petroleum jelly (Vaseline) will help it prime quickly.

    <font color=black>HarryH3 - '75 K5</font color=black>
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck>www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck</a>
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  10. txbartman

    txbartman 1/2 ton status

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    See the update in the main post. Thanks, everyone, for your help so far.

    Brian
    Check out <a target="_blank" href=http://tx85gmcguy.alloffroad.com>My Jimmy</a> with all her projects!
     
  11. solowookie

    solowookie 1/2 ton status

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    I got my priming tool from summit racing for about $20, and it worked great (this was about august).

    <font color=blue> Jeff - may the force be with you</font color=blue>
    <a target="_blank" href=http://coloradok5.com/gallery/Jeffs-Stuff>link to k5's</a>
     

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