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D60 upgrade questions.... 35 spline, alloy shafts, spicers, lockers, yokes?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by jjlaughner, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    First, keep in mind I'll mostly be running wooded, muddy trails, water crossings and maybe some hill climbs/rocks, I'm not a rockcrawler by any means. How long could I expect a good stock D60 to run 39.5" iroks? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif

    Just curious about upgrades, I'm looking into a D60 and what its going to cost to build one? IF! I do end up with one I'll regear, do new joints, maybe 35spline outers, warn lockouts and what is there to do with kingpins? I'll have to go crossover because of the 52" front springs, what about spring plates, will end up with hydro assist at some point (the rig needs to stay streetable). Is an ARB fesable in a 60? I know everyone likes the detroits, but what about e-lockers or just the lock-rights?

    Seen an ebay auction for Yukon 4340 Alloy stub shafts, 35 Splines... so what materials should a good upgraded outer shaft be? What about upgrading inner shafts? are they a problem? Short of CTM ujoints are spicers about the best? Is there a yoke upgrade? What should I definalty upgrade and what can I leave stock till its a problem? Did the 60's change at all during the years?


    Drop me some prices of what you guys have done... and as ALWAYS! PICS! /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif

    (I just toss this out now... because I'm sure I'm jumping in the deep end here /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif )/forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
     
  2. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    If you are not running hard you probably won't break a D60. From what you said you are going to do I would do the following.

    Regear & lock, new ujoints (Spicer 5-806x's), 1350 yoke. If your D60 has the non neck down inner shafts then I might be persuaded to buy some 30 spline chromo outers. That should be more then you need.

    I have seen stock 30 spline stubs fail but it was under decent throttle with 38.5" SX's on a heavy truck hung up in the rocks. The passenger stub failed and the driver tire was in the air.

    35 spline is over rated to me. You can get 30 spline chromo outers that are just as strong and you don't need new hubs or have to worry about the stub hitting the dial of the hub or having a weak hub like you do with 35 spline stuff.

    A 30 spline chromo stub is roughly the same strength as a non neckdown inner axleshaft. So now you have the inner and outer axles at the same strength level. That level should be higher then what you need from what you say.

    Harley
     
  3. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    I am not a fan of Warn hubs for the 60
    they sent me warrantee replacements for mine but now that I have seen a Spicer hub I will not use Warns again
    go 1410 yoke
    with small tire like you are planning I would definitely run the greaseable spl55-4x axle joints
     
  4. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    are the spicers 35 spline outer? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
    got any pics?
     
  5. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    If you want 35 spline outers you probably shouldn't be running hubs anyway. Either way, Warn and Milemarker both make 35 splile hubs, the Spicers are 30 spline.

    I am going to be running Warn drive flanges (I have them here already) and I see no point in going 35 spline and running hubs at all. You're just creating another weak link to fail and shock load and break your entire drivetrain. That said, I've sold a number of 35 spline kits with hubs, that seems to be the way everyone wants to do it. I personally think that once you get hardcore enough to need the heavy axleshafts you're not going to want hubs anymore.

    I run a lockright up front without issues. An ARB would be awesome but it's big $$$$$$. If you're on a budget, an ARB is not for you. Other than that, they rock!!

    Chromo 30 splines? I definitely would just go 35 spline.

    The Spicer joints are the best short of CTMs. 5-806x gets you a cold forged non-greasable that is the strongest joint short of a CTM. SPL55-4x is the part number for a greasable cold forged joint that is just as beefy as the 5-806x.

    As to yokes, if you're on a budget you can pull a 1330 or 1350 yoke off nearly ANY D60 rear axle you can find laying around in the junkyard and severely upgrade in strength at the same time. I went 1410 so I did not do this option.

    As to kingpins, there are kits to fix every part of them. I just recently sold m j a complete setup with new kingpins, kingpin springs, kingpin spring retainers, bushings, lower bearings and seals, brand new spindles, etc., so he could rebuild the entire outer portion of his axle. EVERY part is available.
     
  6. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    are the spicers 35 spline outer? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
    got any pics?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you're interested in pics of the 35 spline stubs, joints, and hubs, there is a picture in my ebay auction for this item. I'd send you better pictures if I was on my Dad's computer but I don't have them here. They're pretty beefy, ship weight on a pair of 35 spline stubs, two joints, and a set of hubs is nearly 30 lbs.
     
  7. cegusman

    cegusman 3/4 ton status

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    Re: D60 upgrade questions.... 35 spline, alloy shafts, spicers, lockers, yo

    Before I swapped in the 60 I was running an open dana 44 with either 36" sx's or 39" boggers, I was able to break the axle shafts on command./forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif Swapped in a dana 60 with gears and a detroit stock axles and back to the 39" boggers. I beat the sh!t out of it, several trips ran just front wheel drive + front wheel drive donuts to see if I could break it /forums/images/graemlins/screwy.gif. I got about 14-16 hard wheeling trips out of it. Then one day I let out the clutch in granny gear on flat ground and bam no more ears on the stub shaft. I will be replacing with the stock 30 spine again.
     
  8. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    the Spicer gear has a ton of meat and can be broached to 35 spline
    this was the way it was done prior to Warn releasing their 12 bolt full float conversion hub

    SOMEONE NEEDS TO REPRODUCE THE SPICER HUBS
     
  9. Mudzer

    Mudzer 1/2 ton status Author

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    My Specs: GM Dana 60 with 35 spline non-neckdown inners and 30 spline outers using stock spicer hubs. I have 4.56 gears and a No-Spin drop in locker up front.


    Okay - this is a good subject. In my experience, It all depends on driving style. If you plan on attacking things with a vengance, then by all means upgrade to 35 spline. If you wheel hard, but are easy on the throttle then 30 spline and good joints will work in most cases. Now, this is a very broad subject, but this should make some sense. I have ran the 30 spline stubs with Spicer 5-806X cold formed joints for over a year. I have ran everything from my TrXus STS (heavy tires) 38's on my heavy Rockstomper beadlocked rims, to my 39.5" IROK's with the same rims and have never had a 30 spline shaft break. I've seen others break them, but I've never had that problem yet. Is it because I am a pansy? Well, Maybe. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif It's because when I attempt to use moderate use of the throttle, I always make sure to preload the drivetrain and make sure to not allow the frontend to either bounce or shock. This is where you could break parts. I have had my K5 bound up very hard and never broke a shaft. I also saw Dan break a 30 spline shaft on the same stretch of rocks. The shaft broke on his truck when he was traveling with good momentium and the right front tire made solid contact with a rock ledge and snap! It broke off clean. Some shafts splinter down the length of the shaft - when this happens, it can also damage the spindle as well as the lockout hub. It can even make the spindle eggshaped to where you cannot get the spindle nut loose.

    This is exactly why I am currently upgrading. I now have Spicer 35 spline outers with 30 spline drive flanges which I had broached out to 35 spline. I then bought the aluminum cap kit on Ebay. I plan to machine the inners and outers for full circle clips and use the 5-806X joints.

    On another note - don't believe the hype on Pirate about the Yukon 4340 shafts being junk. I think initially they had some QC issues and some of the shafts were inconsistant in machining. But, I have seen Todd (theBigdaddyof2) hammer a set of these shafts and I mean Hammer! Hammer to the tune of leaving the ground, 4, 5 and 6 feet of air type Hammer! /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif

    I also believe Steve Fox has hammered his pretty good from the pics at Moab where hes standing straight up with no tires on the ground and I believe he runs Spicer 35 spline parts.

    Again, each scenerio is different so use your own judgement on your driving style.

    If I break these Spicers, I'll upgrade them. If I break my no-spin, I'll upgrade it.

    Lastly, I believe 1310 joints can work in a D60 for my driving style. I've never broken a 1310 on my rig to date. I don't even do good maintenance!!! I believe there are tradeoffs when upgrading the yoke. Sure, you can upgrade to a 1410 yoke and have big joint-itus, but think of how much that huge yoke contacts the rocks when you are wedged in a boulder pile.

    If you want to upgrade - contact James Cramer here on the boards, he has much better prices than you can get from Ebay. I've bought several sets of 35 spline parts from him with great service. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  10. justinf

    justinf 1/2 ton status

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    I agree, it all depends on driving style. If money is an issue, then run the 30 splines until you break them, then upgrade.

    Just to let you know, my jeep has 35 spline inners and outers, and uses 1350 joints throughout.
     
  11. Bhintz

    Bhintz 1/2 ton status

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  12. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    Re: D60 upgrade questions.... 35 spline, alloy shafts, spicers, lockers, yo

    I noticed on that site they have a 35 spline detroit locker... so they make 35 inner axle shafts also? I can see this build snow balling... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    So tell me about rebuilding the king pins if needed
    And also parts that you have seen or had brake /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif
     
  13. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    This is exactly why I am currently upgrading. I now have Spicer 35 spline outers with 30 spline drive flanges which I had broached out to 35 spline. I then bought the aluminum cap kit on Ebay. I plan to machine the inners and outers for full circle clips and use the 5-806X joints.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You can recut (assuming thats what broched means) 30 spline to 35? Is it as strong, probley would be cheaper /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    instead of full circle clips what about putting a tack weld on the cap /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif if the joint is going to blow you'll probly loose the ears anyway right /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif


    So hows turning on the street with a front locker and flanges? Do you not have to worry about it as much with a 60?
     
  14. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    35 spline is over rated to me. You can get 30 spline chromo outers that are just as strong and you don't need new hubs or have to worry about the stub hitting the dial of the hub or having a weak hub like you do with 35 spline stuff.

    A 30 spline chromo stub is roughly the same strength as a non neckdown inner axleshaft. So now you have the inner and outer axles at the same strength level. That level should be higher then what you need from what you say.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    So why is the 35spline hub the weak point? Why would they build stonger outers and not beef up the lockout?
    I might look into a set of 30 spline chromo's if I end up with a 60 that has spicer lockouts. If not I might give the drive flanges a try with 35spline.

    Whats the difference between the Warn and the Rockcrusher drive flanges? Are the rockcrushers worth the extra $40 or-so dollars? Or is it just the name and outer plate machining?

    Does anyone have a blank outer plate/cover that doesn't have an engraved logo (like to have my own logo ingraved if I wanted).
     
  15. jjlaughner

    jjlaughner 3/4 ton status

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    Does the hydro assist "cure" death wobble? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
    I understand the concept of the hydro assisted steering, would you need to run a stabilizer on the steet or does the hydro setup act as the damper? Anyone run a run crossover hydro assist D60 on the highway? /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif

    Is death wobble in the steering (like the damper) or the king pins? I remember reading about replacing the springs in the kingpins helped. What maintence should be done. Say with a low mileage military D60 verses a DD D60 out of a work truck?


    (I'm shooting for this post to answer alot of newbie questions (mine) and get alot of input on the myths and availabilty of parts and get a good sence of what needs to be done for upgrades and just general rebuilding /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif Like if I was to drop the coin on a detroit... should I or would it be feasble to get the 35spline detroit and 35 spline inners? then if I had 35spline outers and drive flanges the next fail points would be what the ujoints and the R&P? would it be better to stay stock 30 spline and carry the tool and spares to fix 30spline? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif)
     
  16. justinf

    justinf 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Does anyone have a blank outer plate/cover that doesn't have an engraved logo (like to have my own logo ingraved if I wanted).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mine is just a slug, with a steel cap, no logo on it.

    I believe since the 60 in my jeep got the 35 spline upgrade, the only thing that has broke was a u joint failed and then ripped the ears off the outer shaft.
     
  17. 6.2Blazer

    6.2Blazer 1/2 ton status

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    While 35-spline stubs are all the rage on this board, a majority of people probably really don't need them. If you are going to keep the tire size within reason, stay out of heavy rock crawling, and don't always try to conquer obstacles by trying shove the gas pedal through the floor than the standard stuff can be reliable........and much cheaper.

    I know that people don't like to spend money twice, but that's the nice thing about keeping the stock stubs and hubs for now....if you do break them than go ahead and upgrade and it doesn't cost you a dime more.

    I live in Ohio so the terrain is pretty similar to what you will encounter locally. Including myself, there are five guys in our club that are running fullsize trucks (or at least used to be fullsize) with 60 fronts. Two of them have broken stub shafts.

    One guy was running a longbed Chevy with a very healthy 454, 42" Swampers on 12" wide rims, and a front locker. This guy uses the truck very, very hard, including doing 4 wheel burn-outs on pavement quite frequently. This guy has also exploded several 208 t-cases, a couple of TH350's, at least one 350 SBC, and numerous other parts.....so he's kinda' the exception as he can break anything. He does have Spicer lock-outs broached to 35-spline and hasn't managed to break those yet.

    The only other 30-spline stub failure on the trail I've seen was in a Dodge. It was the original stub shaft from the '70s era truck that had spent many years under a fullsize with 39.5's, built 440, and front locker. At the time it was under a Dakota with a 318 and 39.5's that was pulling a very stuck truck up a rocky and rutted hill. We didn't even hear it break and only knew something was wrong when the right front wasn't spinning. Under the circumstances the failure was most likely just do to years of fatigue.

    Another friend has a F-250 with a Dana 60 front and decided to upgrade to 35-spline stubs after ruining one of the 30-spline stubs and hub during a wheel bearing failure. He is running a stock drive flange broached out to 35-spline and the stock push-on cap. This truck gets driven to and from the trails and he simply pulls out the flange and slaps back on the cap while on the road, takes him about 2 minutes and hasn't had any problems.

    Speaking of driving with the hubs locked and a front locker, both the Ford and my truck have Lock-rights in the front and we don't notice any driveability issues on the road while driving with the hubs locked (with the t-case in 2-hi). The Ford simply pulls the flanges to save a little wear and tear during the 2+ hour drives to the trail.

    And the last thing regarding your question about 35-spline Detroits........the front 60's are already 35-spline.
     
  18. chubbybob

    chubbybob 1/2 ton status

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    like a couple others on here have said just leave it 30 spline without all the expensive crap and use it.
    honestly from the sounds of it you will never have a failure with a 60.

    if you ever do break then bring this back up and ask yourself is it really worth the money and hassle to upgrade something that is already tough ass hell ? /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
    probably not.
     
  19. FWP

    FWP CRS

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I have seen stock 30 spline stubs fail but it was under decent throttle with 38.5" SX's on a heavy truck hung up in the rocks. The passenger stub failed and the driver tire was in the air.


    [/ QUOTE ] I resemble that remark /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    I am not a fan of Warn hubs for the 60
    they sent me warrantee replacements for mine but now that I have seen a Spicer hub I will not use Warns again... and...SOMEONE NEEDS TO REPRODUCE THE SPICER HUBS

    [/ QUOTE ]
    AMEN /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif

    I can't add anything else, listen to mj, Neil, justinf, and 6.2. Right on target.

    BTW, I only upgrade when Sh!t breaks. Now running 38.5 SX, and broached 35 spl spicers. I like to run lockouts, so I can run down the street to get my groceries /forums/images/graemlins/screwy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif
     
  20. miniwally

    miniwally 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    The only thing that I worry about using 30 spline or 35 spline stuff is fatiue (sp) life. We have had to replace 1 complete inner and outer shaft set because the ears on the yoks were starting to enlarge and allowed the ujoint to develope some slop.
    Remember stress is a built up thing. The longer a shaft stays together the weaker it gets.
    I am a big fan of running the best that you can afford and upgrading if that is not enough.
    My personal D60 recipe is
    ARB
    35 spline inners and outers
    Warn drive flanges
    and all new kingpin/bearings etc.
     

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