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Did we "win" in Vietnam?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by surpip, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    I have thought about this alot latley...Living here in califorina, makes you think alot more about the military, It has been my experance that, In the south, people in the military are treated much different, If you walk around in uniform, or flash your ID when you get pulled over Your are more than likley to get some kind of special treatment. I chose not to do this for the most part because i haven't earned it like i belive some people have(like those who have actually seen combat in a war) Although if i know of a place that gives a military discount i will use it, like Kragan does, If i rember to show them my ID:D , and i also get 15% off my cell phone bill every month through AT&T.

    But any way back on topic, these things really make me think about what the guys went through in Vietnam, coming back to a country that largely diddent support them, getting spit on by thier own countrymen, and women, While they were over the experencing thing's that you would only see in your worst nightmares. I make it a point to go up to every Vet. i see and thank them for dooing what they did.

    My main problem with this is , I think it is really really ****ty of any one to not support the troops, Hate the war? Fine. Hate bush? Thats cool to, but for god sakes give those guys and gals over ther every thing you can they are dooing something that most of us could never dream of dooing, I know i shure as hell wouldent want to be over there!!!
    The reason i bring this up, is that there were some people form Berkley, they have a house here in Sac, and they put up this solider uniform with a noose around its neck, full story here: http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/4180042/detail.html
    It really pissed me off, to me it was the same kind of crap they guys had to put up with in Vietnam, So i guess my question is this, did we win? and i mean as a socitey, did we really win? because if we did that why is this happining again?

    sorry for the long rant, i just have been thinkin about this alot latley,
    and im not the best typer, i probally should have written this in word first:D
     
  2. Desert Rat

    Desert Rat Fetch the comfy chair

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    I agree with you, and I don't. I have a fundemental problem with the concept of "I support the troops but not the war", relative to any of our current and past conflicts. Now, I know I'll ruffle a few feathers but nevertheless, here is how I see it.

    Military personnel, and to an extent other paramilitary organizations like police and other public safety, voluntarily sign up. These folks know when they sign up what the job entails. They know that they aren't going to be calling the shots. So, they make a conscious decision to join an organization that has as its most basic prinicple the obedience to orders no matter what the individuals personal opinion. Discipline is the order of the day and orders have to be carried out or chaos reigns. When the Commander in Chief says it is time to fight, the military doesn't stop, hold a council session, confer with each other on whether or not they will do it, and drag it out. The military executes the mission, whatever their personal views.

    As a practical matter then, the military becomes the tool by which an administration, or a government, carries out their will. However, unlike blaming a gun for a murder, the gun is an inanimate object. A human being thinks, reasons, ponders, and judges. As a result, when the military carries out their orders, they are just as responsible (theoretically) as the Commander in Chief for the validity and morality of those orders. "I was just carrying out orders" didn't fly at Nuremberg and it still doesn't today. As a result, each military person makes the decision at enlistment whether or not they agree to join an organization that expects absolute obedience to orders unless they are blatantly and unequivocably illegal and immoral. And if they might be, who then decides and when?

    So, when a person claims to support the military but not the war, I would submit that this statement is disengenious at heart. I think it is simply a cop out. I think those that make this statement simply do not want to reap the consequences of speaking their full mind. They do not want to seem cold hearted and un-American. I think inside they would just as soon not support the troops either. This is what happened during and after the Vietnam war. I have to at least have some small admiration for those that back then, and now, clearly state their position, even if I find it reprehensible. Now some try and make their opposition a bit more palatable, simply to avoid riding the heat for their true agenda. If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops because they are the tool used to execute the war. They do so willingly and sacrifice themselves for the cause. At least have the sack to stand up and oppose them as well instead of trying to walk a fine line and not reap what you sow. And when you hear it from a politician, it is simply a tactic not to alienate too many votes. The old have their cake and eat it too...

    Just my .02. And for what it is worth, I support the war, the troops, and anybody who puts their life on the line for the benefit of all, even when they don't appreciate it.
     
  3. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    Ok i see your point and i kinda agree, but I work for the government, and evan if i disagree with what they tell me to do, i still have to do it and i dont think i should be hated for it. I understand you point about folowing orders, but some times thats just how it is, like this for example, i know it isent a real good on but i couldnt think of anyhting better:

    A group of fire fightere goes to a crack house or a meth lab thats on fire, with all the chemicals inside thats a pretty dangerous fire, I think its stupid that they have to go fight it, let it burn i say, But they do their job, with a good chance that they may die, I support them, but not that paticular job.
    Did that make any sence?
     
  4. gokartergo

    gokartergo 3/4 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    Most of you guys aren't old enough.. But I am 42 years old. I remember when I was in second grade.. The teacher brought a TV from home.. Most classrooms didn't have TV'S back then. We watched has our milatery came home. I remember asking the teacher why everybody was boing and spitting at them. I remember the teacher crying and saying she didn't now. You also have to remember that most of the milatry back then where drafted. It was not there choice to be in the service. But they did it anyways..
     
  5. firefighter184

    firefighter184 1/2 ton status

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    South Vietnam is a Communist country today, so no. Thats' the easy answer. Could we have won? Hard to say. I do know that even back then, the left hated the military, and any use of it. They hamstrung our guys over there with totally inappropriate rule of engagement (such as a bombing ban on Hanoi and other brilliant f**kups). Same slack-jawed hippie faggots. different war. My old man got doused with red paint and feces when he came home. I figure it's only a metter of time before the hippies start that crap up again. Difference is, I'll be at the airport waiting for my buddies to get back from Iraq, and anybody gets froggy? Asskickin time.
     
  6. ronnny

    ronnny 1/2 ton status

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    I support the war, the troops and the going over to liberate a dicator ruled country because the president that was voted in decided too. I do feel some things could of been handled different but that does not matter. What does matter to me is that I support them the way I would of wanted my father supported everytime he got sent somewhere from korea to vietnam and just doing time overseas.:waytogo: :bow: To all that serve in peace and war.
     
  7. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Sounds like comman head up ass lefty lib thinking. Only a lib would dissrespect a service person. It's because of people like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry that our troops in Nam got sh_t on when they returned, and these same lefties want too treat our current service personal with the same crapola.
     
  8. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    To answer the question in the subject line, no.

    On the other hand, Vietnam lost also. Almost an entire generation of men was wiped out in the war... they ended up being ran by commies which resulted in a chitty economy that has taken them decades to recover from... etc etc.

    We lost because our goal, stopping the spread of communism into South Vietnam, wasn't accomplished. We also lost because Americans hate losing and our military had to shoulder the burden of that loss until it could fight and win again another day... which didn't really happen until Desert Storm. Lastly, we lost in that a small part of our population learned that it could weaken the rest of the country just by being a bunch of rabid criminal piece of chit protestors. All of these things were bad and losses taken by our side.. not to mention 58,000+ dead.

    What we must do as a nation, so that those 58,000 men did not die in vain is to learn from our mistakes. IMO, our military has learned a great deal from the Vietnam era and its devestating effectiveness (as seen in DS and ever since really) is the evidence. We still haven't figured out how to solve our left-wing problem... but with the white house, both houses of congress, most governorships and a 5-4 majority on the supereme court, at least we have 'em where we want 'em....

    j
     
  9. 3 on the tree

    3 on the tree 1/2 ton status

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    We lost in Nam, no question about that-did not achieve our mission.Too many people with different ideas on how to win the war.Eisenhower was warned by numerous military advisors not to get involved there, but he is the one that started the ball rolling. As to protestors, what about our founding fathers protesting the tea tax, the stamp tax, one sided import/export laws. How bout abolitionists protesting slavery? Protesting is one of our rights as US citizens. I got spit on and red paint thrown on me, and I wanted to kick some serious ass, but I did not. I just could not understand how people could be so blind and ignorant as to the facts. If Iraq is a stable, democratic country 5 years from now, then we have done the right thing. If it turns into another Lebanon, then alot of our warriors died for nothing. Don't get me started on the middle east, we have always been on the outs with them cause of our association with Great Britain, and I don't think anything will ever change that.
     
  10. tucsonkfive

    tucsonkfive 1/2 ton status

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    What ronny said.:thumb:
     
  11. Desert Rat

    Desert Rat Fetch the comfy chair

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    Well, kind of apples and oranges. The firefighters put their lives on the line willingly and don't make judgements as to the validity of their orders true. But, their orders are to save life and property, not take lives. The huge difference in war is that in order to win, you kill people. The end result hopefully is that you save lives by killing, but you kill nevertheless. This is a huge moral decision. As a result, the decision by militray personnel to follow orders to me is no different than the decision to go to war in the first place. You either agree with the decision, or you don't. And then the bigger question is whether or not you will still participate. I just believe you can't separate the warrior from the person who sends them to war. An enlistee should be fully prepared to support the orders of the Commander in Chief when they sign up, or not sign up to begin with. I have nothing but disdain for those that sign up to wring benefits of military service as long as they are in peace time, but cut and run as soon as the **** hits the fan.
     
  12. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    Ok i agree with you, but i alos belive that you can say i think the war is stupid and we shouldent be over there, but hey I support those men and women that are over there.

    I personally think the war was a good idea, we got a dictator out of power, mabye for the wrong reasons, but i still think it was a good thing to do regardless of wahtever reasons were givin by the CIC.
    That beeing said, i also belive that the men and women of the armed forces fight for the right for everybody to say whatever they want.
    just my .02 cents
     
  13. Desert Rat

    Desert Rat Fetch the comfy chair

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    Which is exactly why we've fought just about every war since our independence. Personally, I think it highly selfish for people to believe that since they already live in a country with the most freedom of anywhere on the planet that since they already have it, then screw everybody else. There are some things worth sacrificing for and giving enslaved people freedom is one of them.
     
  14. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    ok i guess we are on the same page than

    sorta:D
     
  15. ssls6

    ssls6 Registered Member

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    Arguing about IRAQ is like predicting the future.

    1) If IRAQ becomes an island of democracy where human rights are observed and celebrated, the world will call Bush a genius.

    2) If IRAQ falls back into a religious dictatorship, the world will call Bush an idiot.

    We don't know the outcome yet so it is too early to start calling names. The middle east was spinning out of control and someone needed to step up. Bush did and history will judge him.
     
  16. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

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    You know what's funny, is the men and women in uniform are defending those Berkley idiots right to do that, and those scum suckers are too stupid to even realize it. Unfortunately, alot lot of college kids are really ignorant and uneducated, and will believe anything they hear. I'm so happy to now live in Oklahoma, because there would be a SEVERE ass whoopin' for anyone that hung an effigy (sp?) of a soldier on their property.
    The war in Vietnam was lost because it was ran by politicians as opposed to warriors. Very few battles were lost, but there wasn't enough emphasis placed on winning with strategy as there was "the numbers". Blame McNamara and the rest of the "Wiz Kids" for that one.

    John
     
  17. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    There is protesting and there is protesting. The left wing protestors in this country during the Vietnam era were literally in direct communication with our enemies (KGB, China, North Korea, Vietnam etc) and doing everything they could do to aide the enemy in the killing of their own neighbors. These people didn't just think "we shouldn't have gone there"... it was more like "I hope the peace loving people of Vietnam win and hurl out the yankee invader!!! America sucks!!!!" Comparing that with the revolutionary protest (boston tea party, the Declaration of Independance) seems to be more than a stretch.

    and its my right to say that they are a bunch of pieces of ****, wrong, criminal, and in bed with the enemy. Simply using the freedom of speech doesn't make a person right, moral, truthful or heroic. Anyone can flap their jibs. If Adolf Hitler had just happened to have been born in the US instead of Austria... Mein Kampf would have been freedom of speech. Doesn't mean his ideology isnt one of the most detestable, destructive and amoral ones in history.

    you sir, have a great deal of restraint!

    we agree here, though it took a good deal longer than 5 years for the United States of America to become a "stable, democratic country" after the revolution was launched....

    doh, perish the thought. Another Lebanon. That would truly suck. Very few places on earth would be improved by nuclear carpet bombing, but that is one of them. AFA out association with the limeys, it may have started the ball rolling, but the radical muslims hate us plenty for our own actions these days. I really don't have a problem with that. They wouldn't be happy unless we allowed them to erradicate the jews and that simply cannot be justified under any reasoning. I'm waiting for the arabs to figure out that they lost so they'll give it up already. Pretty much every nation on earth has a boarder that is forged by a war. You win, you take some territory, put up some fences and thats the boarder. The jews kicked the arabs ass FIVE times in a row now and the arabs still don't consider it legitamate. Oh well, someday nukes will probably decide it.

    j
     
  18. 3 on the tree

    3 on the tree 1/2 ton status

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    I agree that any protestors that knowingly associated with our known enemies should be considered traitors. During Vietnam, alot of KGB money was put into protest activity without the protestors knowing about it. As far as my restraint, I would have gone to jail twice, once in San Diego, and once at Camp Pendleton. I did tell those people that people like me were what gave them the right to do what they did. That kinda shut them up.
     
  19. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

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    My 2 cents........

    Did we kill more of the enemy than we lost of our own?
    - Hell Yes.
    Did we win the majority of the battles fought, regardless of the politically-driven restrictions placed on our warfighters?
    - Yes. Barely a few times, but Yes.
    Did we achieve our strategic and political goals?
    - No.

    So as I see it:
    If you define winning as suffering the fewest casualties, Yes we won.
    If you define winning as being victorious in battle, Yes we won.
    If you define winning as achieving your strategic and political goals... we Lost.
     

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