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direct port or tbi

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by 69K5, Jun 19, 2003.

  1. 69K5

    69K5 1/2 ton status

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    which type of EFI is better for a dd? direct port or a TBI setup? im thinking TBI for parts availability. opinions??? or stay withe q jet

    nathan
     
  2. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    which type of EFI is better for a dd? direct port or a TBI setup? im thinking TBI for parts availability. opinions??? or stay withe q jet

    nathan

    [/ QUOTE ]

    TBI is the best thing for off-roading. Go ahead and argue, I'm sticking to my guns!!! Very simple to work on, super dependable, and makes better low end torque than multi-port EFI systems.

    I just bought an '89 Chevy parts van with a TBI350/700R4 that I will be parting out soon. Email or PM me if you are interested in the whole motor/trans with all wiring and computer to swap... Motor is shot but rebuildable, trans is supposedly OK but I haven't checked it over yet.

    I will be stripping it and listing on ebay soon so...

    Cheers,
    Scott
     
  3. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    I'll bite.

    Injection such as TPI is a better setup than TBI. They use almost all the same components, save extra injectors. What else is more failure prone in TPI that doesn't exist in TBI? Nothing? I doubt it can be argued that port injection is MUCH more popular in the aftermarket than TBI, and has a LOT more options correspondingly.

    There's a reason TBI isn't used anymore. It was a band-aid, and doesn't have the versatility nor the potential that port injection does. How many twin turbo small block TBI motors do you see? How much power was GM making on TBI motors vs TPI motors when both were in production? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Sure, it took longer for port to make it to trucks, but thats because it saved GM money to stick with it as long as possible, until the HP wars started again, and they needed to advertise as much power as they could make.

    You can also argue that GM needed to make sure the system was reliable enough for trucks, but since they went to CPI on trucks in '96, port injection not being dependable enough obviously isn't a problem.

    I'm not saying TBI is bad, it's better than a carb, but you are still dealing with a "wet" intake. If you have a choice between the two, why not go with the one that makes more power, and can do more?

    TBI has the "advantage" of being used on our trucks, so wiring might be a HAIR easier, but thats it for advantages IMO. The acquisition cost seems to be about the same.
     
  4. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    Couldn't have said it better myself, Dorian. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Hands down for torque - TPI rules over TBI. I know, been there, had both.
     
  5. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

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    Eaiter are fine my worry would be the Optispark used on some of the TPI systems. In a truck they tend to take a beating especialy if you do a lot of mud.
     
  6. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    OK, I agree and disagree with some points made here:

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I've had both TPI and TBI in the mud and on technical trails, and the TBI made much better low end torque, making rock crawling much easier. The TPI was much more difficult to control in 'crawl' situations. It took more throttle to get going where the TBI was easy to torque out of a hole slowly.

    /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif However, I had a TPI in a Truck, and the TPI was never designed for a Truck. It was designed for high-end horsepower in a Camaro, not trail riding. Newer multi-port systems like the Vortec engines are multi-port designs specifically for trucks, so they may be better with low end torque than the TPI.

    /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif There is no contest between the complexity of working on a TBI and a multi-port system of any kind. Sure they use many of the same sensors, but have you ever pulled a TPI unit off an engine??? If you plan to drop it in and leave it alone, go with the Vortec. If you plan to work on it a lot, as most of us end up doing whether we want to or not, get a TBI. Parts are much cheaper for the TBI, and the computer is much more 'understanding' of minor mods than a newer OBDII system. OBDI and OBDII is a whole different discussion I know, but if we're talking about the difference between a stock K5 TBI and a Vortec swap, it should be addresed. A Vortec 350 is FAR more complex with its electronics than a '92 TBI 350.

    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif As for the cost of acquiring one or the other, I have to argue here... If you can find me a complete Vortec 350 with all the wiring and computer to make it work in a K5 for the same price or even close to the same price as a complete TBI 350, call me! I have cash! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Even 'Old' TPI motors still bring about twice what a TBI motor will bring. This all depends on your location I know, as well as your ability and patience to 'wheel and deal' to get stuff cheap, but I disagree that the cost is comparable.

    /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif TBI WAS a band-aid, I have to agree there. It was not without benefits though. Sure you won't find a twin turbo unit out there, but you WILL find trucks with Roots-Type blowers under a TBI. The cost is about $2000 for this setup compared to more like $5000 for a Paxton or other centrifigal unit for a Multi-Port system. Either system could be turbo'd for about the same cost.

    /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif The 'Coolness Factor' is far better with a Multi-Port system, no doubt about it. When you open the hood on your TPI 4x4 S10 at the gas station, you cause a scene. Nobody will notice your TBI and most people don't even know it's not a carb.

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Since I argued both sides, I'll put in sort of a summary here. If you have the cash and want it to be as cool as possible, get a Vortec or other newer Multi-Port system. If you're the 'Average Joe' that will work on his truck a lot, want cheap parts availability, and want to do a reasonably priced EFI swap, do the TBI. The cost of acquiring the EFI motor is only a portion of the cost of doing a swap.

    /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif How's that for strattling the fence??? /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif

    Cheers,
    Scott
     
  7. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I've had both TPI and TBI in the mud and on technical trails, and the TBI made much better low end torque, making rock crawling much easier. The TPI was much more difficult to control in 'crawl' situations.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Since TPI wasn't used on trucks, I'm guessing it was an adapted system that wasn't running correctly, because there is no reason TPI would run worse than TBI, period.

    [ QUOTE ]
    However, I had a TPI in a Truck, and the TPI was never designed for a Truck.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    See above.

    [ QUOTE ]
    It was designed for high-end horsepower in a Camaro, not trail riding.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You must not have spent much time dealing with these systems. They aren't made for high end HP. Look at the torque curve of stock TPI (it's flat) and look at what point it wheezes out. Approx. 5000RPM on a stock long tube runner setup. That is NOT high end horsepower, and no matter how hard you try, you simply can't make the kind of HP with the long tube setup you can with setups such as the miniram. The 17 inch intake runners on the TPI setup certainly weren't made for high RPM use.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Newer multi-port systems like the Vortec engines are multi-port designs specifically for trucks, so they may be better with low end torque than the TPI.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Dunno if the Vortecs are batch fire or not (really doesn't matter) however, they are still port injection, just different intake and fuel distribution system. GM still doesn't have to meet car emissions standards with trucks, and you can bet saving cost is more important than having the most efficient engine. Hell, the Vortec intakes are plastic. You gonna tell me thats more durable than aluminum? As I mentioned though, I wasn't considering the Vortec swap. Thats a whole different can of worms.

    [ QUOTE ]
    A Vortec 350 is FAR more complex with its electronics than a '92 TBI 350.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not talking about Vortec, I know how much more complex that swap would be. A TPI swap is much easier. The beauty of any GM injection system is that you can test the components, instead of replacing them. If you are worried about how hard it is to pull the injection setup off, I feel for you. I sure as hell don't plan to be ripping that stuff off more than about 1 time in 100,000 miles. I guess thats another plus for injection, theres no REASON to be pulling it repeatedly. Give me a valid reason you'd have to pull the injection stuff constantly. And not because of user error.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Parts are much cheaper for the TBI

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Somebody go quote me the cost on a TBI and TPI dist, TPS, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel pump relay, oil pressure switch, ESC module, and so on. MAF sensor and injectors are the only thing I can think of that TPI is at a disadvantage for cost. They also don't fail often. If you like to throw parts at problems instead of testing, no electrical system is for you.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Even 'Old' TPI motors still bring about twice what a TBI motor will bring. This all depends on your location I know, as well as your ability and patience to 'wheel and deal' to get stuff cheap, but I disagree that the cost is comparable.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You can buy *complete* TPI setups (not talking engine) for $500 all day long. What's a *complete* good condition TBI go for? Much less? enough to make it worthwhile? And if you want to get technical, you can get the earliest TPI that will bolt to the "old" style heads which is one less expense.

    Still not convinced TBI is even close to TPI.
     
  8. 69K5

    69K5 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Optispark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    what is it?

    And grim is right i spend a lot of time in the mud and water. The mud and water spend a lot of time in the truck. Testing the system i can do even if i dont like wires. i have had both a 90 1500 2wd (might as well have been a 4wd) and a 98 z 71 so i am used to that. I was just looking around and there were all sorts of systems from complicated and expensive to simple and cheap (comparitivley)

    nathan
     
  9. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Optispark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Front mounted distributor as I recall, which is very prone to getting wet, and thus not working correctly. I think that there are some mods that can be done to it, but it's an LS or LT1 motor deal, not a TPI/TBI issue.
     
  10. 69K5

    69K5 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Optispark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Front mounted distributor as I recall,

    [/ QUOTE ]

    lt1 ls1? i though only fords had that?

    nathan
     
  11. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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  12. 69K5

    69K5 1/2 ton status

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    dyeager535

    go figure. you learn something everyday. i may not evere get my truck finished but i am gonna be so full of information that i could talk it down the road.

    thanks for the link and all the other help

    nathan /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  13. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I've had both TPI and TBI in the mud and on technical trails, and the TBI made much better low end torque, making rock crawling much easier. The TPI was much more difficult to control in 'crawl' situations.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Since TPI wasn't used on trucks, I'm guessing it was an adapted system that wasn't running correctly, because there is no reason TPI would run worse than TBI, period.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    The TPI swap functioned perfectly as it did in the TA it came out of. I have spent countless hours researching TPI motors as well as working on them. (Them being plural.) I never said it didn't function as well as a TBI, I said that the basic characteristics of TPI are not as well suited for a trail truck as a TBI unit. IMO.

    [ QUOTE ]
    However, I had a TPI in a Truck, and the TPI was never designed for a Truck.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    See above.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    It was designed for high-end horsepower in a Camaro, not trail riding.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    You must not have spent much time dealing with these systems. They aren't made for high end HP. Look at the torque curve of stock TPI (it's flat) and look at what point it wheezes out. Approx. 5000RPM on a stock long tube runner setup. That is NOT high end horsepower, and no matter how hard you try, you simply can't make the kind of HP with the long tube setup you can with setups such as the miniram. The 17 inch intake runners on the TPI setup certainly weren't made for high RPM use.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You need to look at BOTH torque curves and see where the TPI STARTS making power and where the TBI STARTS making power. I was comparing the TBI and TPI, and in comparison the TPI will make more HP at 5000 than a TBI. You're the expert here apparently, let's see some torque/hp charts to prove me wrong. And it all depends on whether you plan to spin your 4x4 at 5000 in the mud or crawl through trails at barely off-idle. That's why I'm arguing both sides here.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Newer multi-port systems like the Vortec engines are multi-port designs specifically for trucks, so they may be better with low end torque than the TPI.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    Dunno if the Vortecs are batch fire or not (really doesn't matter) however, they are still port injection, just different intake and fuel distribution system. GM still doesn't have to meet car emissions standards with trucks, and you can bet saving cost is more important than having the most efficient engine. Hell, the Vortec intakes are plastic. You gonna tell me thats more durable than aluminum? As I mentioned though, I wasn't considering the Vortec swap. Thats a whole different can of worms.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do you damage your intake manifold often in trail riding? The plastic intake weighs less and cools off faster. Why wouldn't you want a plastic intake, other than resistance to change?

    [ QUOTE ]
    A Vortec 350 is FAR more complex with its electronics than a '92 TBI 350.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    Not talking about Vortec, I know how much more complex that swap would be. A TPI swap is much easier. The beauty of any GM injection system is that you can test the components, instead of replacing them. If you are worried about how hard it is to pull the injection setup off, I feel for you. I sure as hell don't plan to be ripping that stuff off more than about 1 time in 100,000 miles. I guess thats another plus for injection, theres no REASON to be pulling it repeatedly. Give me a valid reason you'd have to pull the injection stuff constantly. And not because of user error.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    How about a cam and lifter swap? EGR valve replacement? Again I reiterate that it depends on whether you plan to modify your engine or leave it alone after you swap it in.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Parts are much cheaper for the TBI

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    Somebody go quote me the cost on a TBI and TPI dist, TPS, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel pump relay, oil pressure switch, ESC module, and so on. MAF sensor and injectors are the only thing I can think of that TPI is at a disadvantage for cost. They also don't fail often. If you like to throw parts at problems instead of testing, no electrical system is for you.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The MAF is at least $200, more than the cost of a complete TBI system. (See below.) Get quotes to replace 8 injectors for your TPI and compare it to 2 injectors for your TBI. I'm answering questions from someone who I believe has not worked on either a TBI or TPI, so I am assuming that 'simple' is the way to start. But that is for the swapper to decide once he/she is informed enough to do so.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Even 'Old' TPI motors still bring about twice what a TBI motor will bring. This all depends on your location I know, as well as your ability and patience to 'wheel and deal' to get stuff cheap, but I disagree that the cost is comparable.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [ QUOTE ]
    You can buy *complete* TPI setups (not talking engine) for $500 all day long. What's a *complete* good condition TBI go for? Much less? enough to make it worthwhile? And if you want to get technical, you can get the earliest TPI that will bolt to the "old" style heads which is one less expense.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can buy complete TBI setups for $100-$200 just about any day of the week. Many times you can buy a complete TBI VEHICLE for $200. Can you find me a complete TPI VEHICLE for $500? I'll take as many as you can find me for that price.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Still not convinced TBI is even close to TPI.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And you never will be. I am still not saying one is absolutely better than the other. It all depends on the driving style, mechanical experience, and funds available to the swapper. For a first EFI swap in a trail rig, my 'suggestion' is TBI. The TPI may be better in some situations, but it will never be cheaper.

    I LOVE TPI motors, and would rather put one in any vehicle than a TBI. My personal experience has been, however, that TBI swaps/units are easier to work on and cheaper to swap. You have apparently had different experiences. I am just trying to give all the info I know so others can make an informed decision.

    My web site is down for the next 24 hours or so, but check out www.rigdonhome.com for a much more complete description of my TPI swap along with some links to unbiased resources for TPI and TBI swapping info. Do the research yourself and decide which is right for you and your driving style.

    Sal
     
  14. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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  15. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    *applause*

    Again, couldn't have said it better if I tried.

    Look, TPI is the bomb for low end torque. Trust me on this..........or not. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  16. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    Optispark was not used on TPI, it was used on LT-1.............sorry if I seem to be splitting hairs but TPI and LT-1 are considered 'separate' systems.
     
  17. BurbinOR

    BurbinOR 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    The MAF is at least $200, more than the cost of a complete TBI system. (See below.) Get quotes to replace 8 injectors for your TPI and compare it to 2 injectors for your TBI. I'm answering questions from someone who I believe has not worked on either a TBI or TPI, so I am assuming that 'simple' is the way to start. But that is for the swapper to decide once he/she is informed enough to do so.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    MAP systems for TPI were available since either 89 or 90 so MAF cost was not a necessary comparison. My 406 was MAP, ran like a raped ape, and had low end you would not believe..........pic of the motor if you don't believe it existed below. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and for the guys that are interested in TPI info, do a search here and on www.thirdgen.org - and here's a link to the 'Injector Swap Article' I wrote for Thirdgen.

    TPI Injector Swap

    As they say, to each their own. I've owned and worked on both systems, my vote hands down is TPI. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  18. 88Silverado

    88Silverado 1/2 ton status

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    Interesting article on TBI and TPI.
    Just read down a little bit
    TBI & TPI
     
  19. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The MAF is at least $200, more than the cost of a complete TBI system. (See below.) Get quotes to replace 8 injectors for your TPI and compare it to 2 injectors for your TBI. I'm answering questions from someone who I believe has not worked on either a TBI or TPI, so I am assuming that 'simple' is the way to start. But that is for the swapper to decide once he/she is informed enough to do so.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    MAP systems for TPI were available since either 89 or 90 so MAF cost was not a necessary comparison. My 406 was MAP, ran like a raped ape, and had low end you would not believe..........pic of the motor if you don't believe it existed below. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and for the guys that are interested in TPI info, do a search here and on www.thirdgen.org - and here's a link to the 'Injector Swap Article' I wrote for Thirdgen.

    TPI Injector Swap

    As they say, to each their own. I've owned and worked on both systems, my vote hands down is TPI. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That is a Sweet Engine, let me start by saying that...

    BUT... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    First, you have to admit that the custom chip you had to burn for your MAP TPI cost more than a complete TBI swap would. C'mon, admit it! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Second, a 406 will be a torque monster with a Cast Iron intake and Qjet... It's hard to say your low end torque came from the TPI swap. The TPI swap DID make the engine perform better, but I think that comparing your 406 TPI to a stock TPI/TBI swap is getting off the subject a little.

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif However, I must not understand the question. I think you guys are taking my comments as if I'm bashing on your Mills... Not at all. I think the question was:

    "Do I swap a TBI, a Multi-Port, or keep the Qjet." This was my interpretation of the question and I have responded as such.

    This thread has become:

    "Which is better, TPI or TBI?" Which will be argued here and on other forums for the rest of time.

    You can't possibly tell us that you did your 406 TPI swap for the same or comparable cost of a TBI swap???

    MAF engines don't require a new chip to be burned every time you make a mod, such as sneaking in a cam or a larger engine under the TPI unit. MAP engines are very unforgiving of even minor performance mods. /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif

    Cheers,
    Scott
     
  20. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    which type of EFI is better for a dd? direct port or a TBI setup? im thinking TBI for parts availability. opinions??? or stay withe q jet

    nathan

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Nathan-

    There is a lot of great information in this thread, especially through all the links everyone has put in here. However, I think the thread has gone off the subject and into an argument that nobody will ever win. So here is my advice, take it or leave it:

    1) You can do a TBI swap for about $150 if you shop around. (If you get the complete TBI for $100 as stated in this thread you will still have extra expenses, $50 is a very conservative estimate.)You will be happy with this over your Qjet for sure.
    2) You can do a TPI swap for about $600 (if you get the complete TPI for $500 as stated in this thread you will still have extra expenses, $100 is a very conservative estimate.) This will also make you stomp on your Qjet and curse it to exile.
    3) Talking STOCK motors here, I would bet that if you drove a stock TPI350 and a stock TBI350 you would have a hard time telling the difference in the seat of your pants, and it is a judgement call whether or not the TPI is worth the extra expense.
    4) If you're building the Kick-Ass Dream motor you've always wanted, forget about the TBI completely. Do a Multiport system of SOME kind, without saying 'Go TPI' or 'Don't go TPI'...
    5) /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif Like I said, the TBI/TPI debate is only part of the answer to your question... There are many many factory AND aftermarket Throttle Body AND Multiport systems out there to be considered. GM TBI/TPI are only two of many awesome systems. To limit yourself to either of these choices would be unfortunate. For example, I've seen complete LT1/4L60E packages with all the wiring and computer go for under $1000 including the complete motor/trans!!! You can't get one this cheap every day, but if you wait and shop around you'll find one. By the same token, if you want to run out today and buy a TBI 350 at your local junkyard they might want $750 for it. This is why I say to shop around and get informed on more than just TBI/TPI before letting go of those precious pennies! /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Best of Luck,
    Scott
     

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