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Do you think the rule in the new fab forum are to stiff?

Discussion in 'Feedback | Site Announcements' started by Okiemuddog, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. Okiemuddog

    Okiemuddog 1/2 ton status

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    Okay, I am trying to get a feel of everyones opinion. IMHO a fab forum should cover all fab, not just hard core rig hacking fab. There are very few hard core fabbers on here, so basically the new forum is catering to a handful of members and sticking the rest of us in the garage with the everyday "how do I change a tire" post, anyone else fell this way or is it just me? If no one else feels this way then I will just continue my usual "answer if I have to" posts.
     
  2. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Ok, some context for those who stuble across this.

    Read this first. Then read this. And finally, this is the post that inspired the creation of this new topic. One other thread of relevance is this one.

    Also, Krennen, like I suggested earlier, please explain further what your goals are.

    Right now your post reads to me as “I (or we depending on responses) don’t like the way it is and it should be changed to what I (we) want.” Ok, you don’t like where the line is (being) drawn now, so where DO you think it should be? In order to have a meaningful response, you need to be specific. “All fab” is too vague. I could fab a bracket from a piece of steel strap to bolt on my lights by cutting it and drilling 2 holes. I could fab a new carpet for my K5 from house carpet remnants. You could fab a “high flow” air filter by flipping the lid. I could fab a high clearance fender by cutting off the corners. Do you want these in there? Do we just let the posters decide and forego moderation completely? If not, where do you draw the line? And yes, yet again I’m go to the extreme to make the point. There must be a line drawn, how and where do you think it should be drawn? Better yet, how is your line it not going to lead to a repeat of this thread by those excluded by the line you would draw?
     
  3. 55Willy

    55Willy 3/4 ton status

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    I think of two things before I post:
    is it available " off the sheft" and is it "basic" fabrication.

    basic fab to me is trimming fenders, making bumper, installing a lift.

    the center of gravity should be centered (bad pun) around.
    body swaps, boat siding, dovetailing, bobbing beds, pinching noses. out of the norm suspension set ups (odd ball springs, eliptic set ups, link systems..etc)
    I guess just anything "out of the ordinary".
     
  4. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Okay, I am trying to get a feel of everyones opinion. IMHO a fab forum should cover all fab, not just hard core rig hacking fab. There are very few hard core fabbers on here, so basically the new forum is catering to a handful of members and sticking the rest of us in the garage with the everyday "how do I change a tire" post, anyone else fell this way or is it just me? If no one else feels this way then I will just continue my usual "answer if I have to" posts.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    You are "painting with a wide brush" in trying to describe the people in the new forum.....

    Just to clarify, my OWN objective is to build a multi-linked suspension underneath a "stock appearing" 1st Gen body. There will be LOTS of little tricks to accomplish that....and yes, a lot of "tech" involved in making the decisions about how to package all of the goodies under the factory skins.

    "Hardcore" is not always about chopping a rig into pieces.



    Yes, I'm "Building A Buggy underneath a Truck's Body".....as it was so aptly described. However, it will be a "buggy" with a heater, a comfortable interior (carpet, sound deadening, stereo, windows that roll up to keep the rain out) and something that can be driven on the highway, street OR trail. This is NOT easy... it will take 10X more work and planning to make it do everything I want, than if I simply "hack" each part that gets in my way.....

    I'd like to think that the new area is more about "aesthetic design" and looking for an elegant way to solve problems. From what I've seen in the posts there so far....that certainly seems to be the case.
     
  5. Okiemuddog

    Okiemuddog 1/2 ton status

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    OKay, I guess this is why I am not a mod., If you want my opinion on what the forum should cover

    boatsiding
    exo-cages
    bumpers, only fully fabbed bumpers, not I bolted a piece of H-beam to my rig
    Sliders, but only if they are out the norm
    Axle swaps, only major swap, like Rockies, or Unimogs, not D60/14B swaps
    Body trimming, but only if more than clipping the fenders a little
    Suspension, but only if doing a conversion, like 1/4 ellip. or springer style and you are building it, not buying it from someone and installing it
    All hardcore mods, rather it be building a buggy from scratch to doing a full hack job on a rig to shorten the wheel base
    You have to realize that some of us do not want to wade through all the crap in the garage, and the year specific forums are a laugh, why have them , 5 posts a day if you are lucky. The garage could be cleaned up, and if it was to be cleaned up of the junk posts I would quit my damn griping. I always thought the Non 4x4 was for genreal chit-chat, but it had bled over into the garage. Examples

    Example 1
    Example 2
    Example 3
    Been beat to death,should have searched
    Useless post
    Non 4x4, wrong forum
    Wrong forum


    And the list goes on, that was just 3 pages of posts that I looked through. that was jsut the ones that caught my eye. I am sure I can find some really good waste of bandwidth if I try,like what oil do I put in my axles, BUY A DAMN CHILTON"S OR HAYNES!


    IMHO, the mods need to have a house cleaning, I have respect for all of you, but it seems like most of you are just window dressing. I mean about the only thing I see mods do lately is break up an occasional flamer and delete a post when warranted.

    I dont know what else to say, I have stated my piece, and I am now done, I will leave this response up for a while, after that I will delete the original and let this dog die, I am not going to get anywhere anyway.
     
  6. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    LOL, sorry to be so "dogged" (BadDog, get it...yeah, bad joke...)
    [ QUOTE ]
    OKay, I guess this is why I am not a mod., If you want my opinion on what the forum should cover

    boatsiding
    exo-cages
    bumpers, only fully fabbed bumpers, not I bolted a piece of H-beam to my rig
    Sliders, but only if they are out the norm
    Axle swaps, only major swap, like Rockies, or Unimogs, not D60/14B swaps
    Body trimming, but only if more than clipping the fenders a little
    Suspension, but only if doing a conversion, like 1/4 ellip. or springer style and you are building it, not buying it from someone and installing it
    All hardcore mods, rather it be building a buggy from scratch to doing a full hack job on a rig to shorten the wheel base

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Believe it or not, this is still too vague. This is *EXACTLY* the problem that we are having now in defining what goes where. Take for an example from your list, “only fully fabbed bumpers, not I bolted a piece of H-beam”. Who decides what is “fully fabbed”? There is a lot of ground between a sculpted elegant aesthetically pleasing yet still functional master-work creation and a bolted on I beam. How about “Sliders, but only if they are out the norm”, who decides what is “the norm”. I would argue that there is not much way a slider could be “out of the norm”. What exactly is “clipping the fenders a little”? On suspensions, “Springer” is a bolt on mod. And the list goes on.

    See, I’m not trying to be a hard ass or start an argument. I’m only trying to show all you guys that this is not a cut and dried process. Every person is going to try to draw the line where they want it to be, the most favorable to them and their interests… it’s human nature. It seems that some of you think that this new forum was created to be a private play pen for only a select few, and that I’m making decisions based on my personal goals. Would it surprise you to know that the line currently being drawn (and enforced by me) is not exactly where I would want it either? Did you notice that some of the posts that I’ve moved I have an active personal interest in and that I am participating in those threads? It’s a compromise based on many different inputs and requirements, and I’m doing my best to enforce the rules as they currently exist while still trying to improve the over-all value of the forum through participating in open discussions like this.

    Nobody wants to feel like they are being “excluded” but when you must draw a line, the implication is there are going to be things on the “other side” of acceptable. No matter where that line is, someone is going to be unhappy with it. One of the reasons the forum rules are evolving the way they are is that we NEED clearly defined boundaries. Excluding “all bumpers” is reasonable based on the probability of truly valuable new tech (very, very low) and it makes the line clear. Otherwise, I have to constantly “make the call”, and your going to be pissed at me (or Steve, or whoever) if we don’t make the same call you would make. And there is a pretty high probability that we don’t agree if you make a post and I then move or delete it…

    I also agree about the clutter in the Garage, and Rene made some very good comments about possible improvements to the various forums. We will just have to continue with suggestions till something better comes up that satisfies the majority of members along with providing for the site’s continued viability (i.e. keeps current sponsors and attracts new sponsors).
     
  7. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

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    I see everyone's point on this. I like the new forum. It does definately cater to only the most skilled, knowledgable of us (or y'all) as the case may be. But can be a good learning ground for the more basically skilled. I think I have good fabricating skills, but I more than likely won't be applying them to my truck, because I can find most of what I want (cage, springer susp.) on the shelf relatively inexpensively. Yes the Garage is a mess, and the traffic in the year specific is next to nill. Dare I say that we follow PBB's lead and have a "newb" and a general forum. My 2 pennies.

    John
     
  8. TrcksR4ME

    TrcksR4ME 1/2 ton status

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    I think the rules are just fine. What it leaves out however is what to do with posts that do not fit there. I tried a post in the BK on this topic and the mods think anything that doesn't go in the new forum goes in year specific.

    All I can say is that I am not sold on this. Traffic issues aside, year specif can be ANYTHING. (And yet diesel gets its own forum, but doesn't that fit into year specific too?) Like you said about bandwidth, think of how much is wasted on the same questions being asked over and over. Maybe if there was a basic fab/tech section, any really good posts on tires, lifts, etc, etc could be sticky'd to the top for newbs to read before asking questions. Then if they do ask something it is something specific to what they are doing or a specific problem they are having, not "what tire/lift/trimming/etc/etc/etc do I need" posts.

    I also look at the other forums we have here, like IFS, S-series, other rides, etc and wonder why they get seperate forums when they can all be grouped together? I thought(isn't it)the main focus here was C/K series trucks? Primiarily 73-91? Yes there are others, but there has to be a main focus here, well I think so anyways /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif So if its a matter of there is already x# of forums here, ax some of the extras and put in one that would surely get used.
     
  9. shewheeler

    shewheeler 1/2 ton status

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    From a strictly I don't know sh!t about fabbing point of view, maybe the complaints regarding the new forum aren't necessarily that the new forum is too specific, but that the Garage has turned into something that is not nearly specific enough. Meaning, you've got peeps who fall somewhere in between being "super duper fabricator" and "moderately skilled fabricator" and it's the latter who feel they don't have a place of their own. They are beyond basic mechanic-type stuff but are not yet ready for the brain twisting sessions in the new forum.

    Maybe a forum specifically geared towards the fab aspect of things that falls somewhere in between is what is needed? I dunno... just bored at work and trying to look busy /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  10. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    OKay, I guess this is why I am not a mod., If you want my opinion on what the forum should cover

    boatsiding
    exo-cages
    bumpers, only fully fabbed bumpers, not I bolted a piece of H-beam to my rig
    Sliders, but only if they are out the norm
    Axle swaps, only major swap, like Rockies, or Unimogs, not D60/14B swaps
    Body trimming, but only if more than clipping the fenders a little
    Suspension, but only if doing a conversion, like 1/4 ellip. or springer style and you are building it, not buying it from someone and installing it
    All hardcore mods, rather it be building a buggy from scratch to doing a full hack job on a rig to shorten the wheel base
    You have to realize that some of us do not want to wade through all the crap in the garage, and the year specific forums are a laugh, why have them , 5 posts a day if you are lucky. The garage could be cleaned up, and if it was to be cleaned up of the junk posts I would quit my damn griping. I always thought the Non 4x4 was for genreal chit-chat, but it had bled over into the garage. Examples

    Example 1
    Example 2
    Example 3
    Been beat to death,should have searched
    Useless post
    Non 4x4, wrong forum
    Wrong forum


    And the list goes on, that was just 3 pages of posts that I looked through. that was jsut the ones that caught my eye. I am sure I can find some really good waste of bandwidth if I try,like what oil do I put in my axles, BUY A DAMN CHILTON"S OR HAYNES!


    IMHO, the mods need to have a house cleaning, I have respect for all of you, but it seems like most of you are just window dressing. I mean about the only thing I see mods do lately is break up an occasional flamer and delete a post when warranted.

    I dont know what else to say, I have stated my piece, and I am now done, I will leave this response up for a while, after that I will delete the original and let this dog die, I am not going to get anywhere anyway.


    [/ QUOTE ]



    Let me say one additional thing that MAY help clarify the "intent" of the newest forum (Center of Gravity):


    The essence of the forum is to address the question of "HOW" something gets designed and built..... and the "WHY" of material selection, sizing, engineering principles, etc.


    It seems that the complaints are focused on the "WHAT"....is a bumper allowed?, is a rockslider allowed?, etc.

    I'll guarantee you, if you posted a question about calculating the bending forces of tubing used on a rockslider and best methods for calculating the leverage that will be trying to tear the slidermounts from your frame....your post would be perfectly acceptable in the new forum.

    In this case, the "what" (rock slider) isn't really as important as the fact that there are underlying questions about how to know that you are actually building one "the RIGHT way"....using something other than a wild guess to determine tubing size, wall thickness, and getting the distribution of loads back into the frame structure of the vehicle.


    The new forum was always intended to be a slow-moving, HIGHLY technical, highly focused topic area. It is the antithesis (quite honestly) of everything that "The Garage" now is....

    You have valid points about improving the content and focus of the other forums.....and I hope that Steve is willing to go through those to help better define the purpose of each.... but be forewarned, once you define RULES for each forum.....you will have members complaining about how it (much like people are NOW complaining about C.O.G.) It's not the fault of the new forum, it's the fact that it has a CLEAR set of rules that are being enforced....unlike the other forums on CK5.
     
  11. SkulzNBonz

    SkulzNBonz 1/2 ton status

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    Playing Devil's Advocate here.
    [ QUOTE ]
    if you posted a question about calculating the bending forces of tubing used on a rockslider and best methods for calculating the leverage that will be trying to tear the slidermounts from your frame

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Honestly, how many user's here are going to even begin to comprehend, much less go into detail on calculations like this. We aren't trying to build the Space Shuttle, we are all building trucks. Yes, I understand the main idea of the forum, but that statement seems to pinpoint the top 1% of those here. I'm all for a highly technical forum, but that seems like overkill.

    John
     
  12. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Playing Devil's Advocate here.
    [ QUOTE ]
    if you posted a question about calculating the bending forces of tubing used on a rockslider and best methods for calculating the leverage that will be trying to tear the slidermounts from your frame

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Honestly, how many user's here are going to even begin to comprehend, much less go into detail on calculations like this. We aren't trying to build the Space Shuttle, we are all building trucks. Yes, I understand the main idea of the forum, but that statement seems to pinpoint the top 1% of those here. I'm all for a highly technical forum, but that seems like overkill.

    John

    [/ QUOTE ]



    I'd be VERY happy with 1%.......14880 current subscribers to this list = about 1500 people actively viewing and contributing to the forum. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif


    Seriously....the problem is NOT what this new forum represents. From the very first post, it was clear that the frustration is with "The Garage"....and it's low S/N ratio these days.


    /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif FIX THE PROBLEM WHERE IT EXISTS..... /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif


    "Center of Gravity" is defined better than any other area. It is NOT the source of the problem. I hope that Steve is willing to accept input on revisions to THOSE areas, and can help them to evolve into useful areas for the other 99% of people who don't care about the "HOWs" or "WHYs" of fabrication....
     
  13. fourwheelerjeff

    fourwheelerjeff 1/2 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I'd be VERY happy with 1%.......14880 current subscribers to this list = about 1500 people actively viewing and contributing to the forum. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    actually i believe that would be 150 people
     
  14. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I'd be VERY happy with 1%.......14880 current subscribers to this list = about 1500 people actively viewing and contributing to the forum. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    actually i believe that would be 150 people

    [/ QUOTE ]



    /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
     
  15. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Okay, I am trying to get a feel of everyones opinion. IMHO a fab forum should cover all fab, not just hard core rig hacking fab. There are very few hard core fabbers on here, so basically the new forum is catering to a handful of members and sticking the rest of us in the garage with the everyday "how do I change a tire" post, anyone else fell this way or is it just me? If no one else feels this way then I will just continue my usual "answer if I have to" posts.

    [/ QUOTE ]



    UPDATE:


    If you take a look at the "Main Index", you will see that Steve has made some changes to help re-focus the existing forums.....

    Garage is the "bluebie playground" so don't expect any technical content to exist there.

    '73-91 Forum goes back to it's roots as a technical forum, and will be the best place for most people to look for and find good tech. This can now be considered THE place to discuss fabrication for the 90% of people who don't want to deal with the strict rules of the C.O.G.

    Other forums are extensions of the '73-91 and are for tech issues specific to those models....



    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  16. CK5

    CK5 In my underwear Administrator Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Actually, you can post a tech question there, it just means that it will probably get buried pretty quickly because it is a fast moving forum, it is highly recommended to post in the category/year specific forums to easily find and answer your questions more quickly. And as always Members helping non-members in the garage forum is highly encouraged, it helps us all. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  17. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    So did I read this right?

    [ QUOTE ]
    '73-91 Forum goes back to it's roots as a technical forum, and will be the best place for most people to look for and find good tech. This can now be considered THE place to discuss fabrication for the 90% of people who don't want to deal with the strict rules of the C.O.G.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To recap, the fabrication discussions that don't fit in the COG, which may I add still has the same initial forum description resulting in all the confusion is now being "directed" to the vehicle specific forum?

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  18. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    So did I read this right?

    [ QUOTE ]
    '73-91 Forum goes back to it's roots as a technical forum, and will be the best place for most people to look for and find good tech. This can now be considered THE place to discuss fabrication for the 90% of people who don't want to deal with the strict rules of the C.O.G.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To recap, the fabrication discussions that don't fit in the COG, which may I add still has the same initial forum description resulting in all the confusion is now being "directed" to the vehicle specific forum?

    /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]



    Yes Bubba....


    C.O.G. = Most Technical Forum
    73-91 = Technical forum for the other 90% of CK5.
    69-72 = Technical forum for the 5% of CK5 that don't drive a '73 or newer K5.
    etc.

    The Garage is forever resigned to the "bluebies" as their playground....it is too fast moving, and with too many non-members to have a high technical S/N ratio.



    So there you have it.... all of the forums now have clearer definitions on the "Main Index" and Steve has already put a stickynote in most of the forums describing proper use and content for each forum.

    I'd like to think that folks like yourself will be happy to see the improvments and be grateful for the work involved to improve the overall technical content and focus of the site......... but for some reason, I suspect there will still be discontent and complaints. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
     
  19. CK5

    CK5 In my underwear Administrator Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    Yes, what part of all this don't you understand?
     
  20. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I'd like to think that folks like yourself will be happy to see the improvments and be grateful for the work involved to improve the overall technical content and focus of the site......... but for some reason, I suspect there will still be discontent and complaints.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Clear as Mississippi mud.............

    [ QUOTE ]
    Yes, what part of all this don't you understand?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The part where everything was thrown into the blender and came out discombulated........................

    Instead of keeping stuff simple with keeping vehicle specific questions in the vehicle specific forums, now it's going to a general catch all type forum because of the complaints resulting from the COG forum and the complaints about the bluebies in the Garage.

    Makes about as much sense as a football bat, but then again it doesn't really matter what I have to say anyway................................

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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