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Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4's?

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by UseYourBlinker, Jul 10, 2002.

  1. UseYourBlinker

    UseYourBlinker 1 ton status

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    Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    I took my K5 to get an alignment,and they did a front end inspection first. The rivet's that hold the cross member to the frame are loose. You can take a screw driver and actually seperate the cross member to the frame. The guy told me that the same thing happened to his 79 short bed. I never heard of this,but I guess I am lucky because it happened to me! /forums/images/icons/frown.gif Does anyone know a good frame shop in Fremont/Newark/Union City?? I guess I'm gonna have to get it welded. Any other idea's? /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
     
  2. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Which crossmember?

    No!!! Don't weld anything on the frame!! The heat from welding can/will affect the frames strength. It can weaken the frame if you apply heat such as from a welder.

    To fix this loose rivet, simply get the rivet out by an air chisel or a hammer and chisel, or however you can get it out, and install a new grade 8 bolt with washers on both sides and a lock washer before the nut.

    I would not do any welding to a frame at all regardless of how good you are or who you have to do it.
     
  3. UseYourBlinker

    UseYourBlinker 1 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Which crossmember?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    The 1st one by the sway bar. Also I think it's all the rivet's.. It's pretty loose. I read you loud and clear about the welding... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  4. NoSmog73

    NoSmog73 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Hey eric do like wes said and get those rivets out and put some grade 8 bollts in there (cant hurt to put some loctiete on there too..Now it is just easier to take the transfer case out...LOL
     
  5. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    first, YES they all do that
    second, stitch weld itsame as the steering box repair, it works better then the bolts, I have tried both ways.
    for bolting use Stovers nuts
     
  6. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Screw that pansy Grade 8 stuff!!!!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
    Get these F911 Bolts
     
  7. trailblazer87

    trailblazer87 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Shoot, you want the strongest that are affordable, get A490 bolts, 220,000psi /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
     
  8. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    haha....I never though I'd say this, But I'll have to disagree with ya on the welding issue Wes... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif Like mj said....Think of the steering box repair thing.....That is welded to the frame. People have been welding rock sliders to frames for some time....Any welder/fabricator worth his salt knows to "stitch" or "skip" weld things like that.....Weld an inch or so....skip and inch or so, weld an inch or so ect ect.....Welding this way will not put so much heat into the frame that it will weaken it......Now if you just ran one continuous bead, thats a different story. Alot more heat goin to the frame then. Excessive heat not only causes the metal to distort when it cools, but also will weaken the metal. I do agree with ya one the method for fixin Erics crossmember...Just not on the welding thing. Also, I'm not your typical "garage" or "back yard" welder. I've had formal schooling in welding tech. and metalurgy- Almost 2 years of it. Also 4 years or so experience on the job. I weld enough at work that I usually go through a 33lb spool of .035 MIG wire in a week or so. This might come off as being cocky or arrogant, but I feel that I'm good enough at this kinda stuff to call my self a professional. I just want to be sure that ya'all know that my opinions are informed opinions. Not just idle talk.
    /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    I suppose now I wait for everyone to dissagree with me.....lol. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  9. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    You may be right, but...... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

    .....welding the frame repair brackets is being done on a "one piece" frame.

    You should not weld anything like where two different pieces of metal, such as the crossmember and frame rail in this case, because there is some flex there. Flex will result in cracks and breaks.

    When welding the surface such as around the steering box, you are not affecting the other crossmembers, etc. Just the metal of the frame around the steering box.

    I would NEVER recommend anybody to weld crossmembers to frame rails, etc. Too much flex going on there. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  10. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    I would not do any welding to a frame at all regardless of how good you are or who you have to do it.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats what I was refering too...You can weld certain things on the frame- I.E...the steering box brace. Liek I said, I do agree with ya on your method for fixing Erics frame...My point was that you can weld certain things on a frame without weakening anything....... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  11. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Yep it's pretty common. Had it happen on both my K5's. ZThe top ones have all held but most of the bottom ones on the 75 have been replaced by grade 8's. 7/16's seems to ring a bell.
    WELDING IS BAD. only reason to weld on these frames is to repair a crack. The frames are tempered and welding will create a weak spot just like Wes pointed out. Some jack off welded a hitch to the rear of mine. 2 of the 4 places it was welded had formed cracks.
     
  12. UseYourBlinker

    UseYourBlinker 1 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    So would it be better to replace the rivet's with grade 8 bolts? Or replace the rivet's with new rivets?
     
  13. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Just go with the grade 8 bolts.

    I have never seen a method for the DIY'er on getting the new rivets to "mushroom" the end of it. Must be some kind of special tool to do this. I know it would require HEAT (again, not a good thing) to get one end hot and soft enough to smash it into the "mushroom" head.
     
  14. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    never had any trouble with welding the crossmembers in.
    there should be no flex in that area if the joints are sound.
    like I said I have done both ways and the welding is much quicker and IMO tighter.
     
  15. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    There is no give at the joint with the frame rails come out of parallel. Given enough cycles off road it will eventually crack. You doubt it go look under a 25 year old jeep with a welded frame. They bust stuff all the time. I doubt you will find a jeeper that doesn't have some storyy about cracked frames that has been it in a while. I have welded up a couple cracks for buds in my club.
    Grade 8 Fine thread bolt will put it back to the condition it left the factory. Why risk the crack if it's easier to use the bolt. The bolt will also pull the crossmeber back into the possition it belongs. Short of you putting a bolt back in the hole that is the correct diameter before you weld the crossmember your not going to have the frame pulled back into the right spot. that will let the motor mount plates sag and the engine will sit closer to the crossmember than it is supose to. My harmonic ballancer was hitting the crossmember when flexed when the rivits Gave it up.
     
  16. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Amen! Couldn't say it better, Grimmy! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  17. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    I'll throw in my $0.02 as well. I agree on the bolts. Even grade 5 is considerably stronger than the rivets that are there from the factory. Grade 8 is a good margin of safety if you want it. On my rig most everything has been moved around by removing the rivets and repositioning using bolts. I used lock nuts AND split ring lock washers under them.

    As for welding frames, yes, you can weld frames all day long. I ran a frame machine for years and I've pieced truck frames more than once, but I've never had one of mine come back broken. I *have* had them come back when the truck was totaled, with a frame shaped like a diamond, frame sections torn, and rivets sheared, but my welds held. I’ve also cut and spliced frames for light trucks 1/2-1.5 ton used by loggers in N. Alabama and Tennessee. The beat the crap out of them and I’ve never heard of one breaking when I fixed it (repaired, shortened, or lengthened). I also added around 8’ to my old 69 GMC 11,000 lb chassis cab (originally the frame was for a 12’ bed) so I could flat bed it and use it as a car hauler. Used it for around 5 years or so, hauling as many as 2 cars at a time on the back of that thing. I also cut down a couple of LWB trucks to make SWB trucks by cutting behind the cab and splicing. When it was done, you couldn’t tell it had not been a SWB from the factory.

    So, sorry to disagree but, welding a frame is no problem if you do it right. However, this is not a place I would weld…
     
  18. 70~K5

    70~K5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    Taking the rivets out and bolting will get the job done, but riviting is stronger cause the rivets expand and completely fill the holes. To do the same with bolts you'd have to ream the holes to a interference fit. Thats what they do on a lot of big rig truck frames. Also if you have extra hole in your frame put bolts in them to help strengten the frame. You see this happen on heavy trucks used hard. They'll crack the frame where there was a empty hole. By filling the extra holes with even ungraded bolts it takes some of the stress out of that area of the frame. /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif
     
  19. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    True on the rivet fit, but, if I'm not mistaken, the specs and real world benefits are still better on the grade 5 3/8s bolts. Only thing is, you got to keep them tight. Rivets fit the hole tighter, but bolts have better clamping force, and the friction from the clamping would easily outweigh the tight fit (I think) when strength is a concern. Any loosening at all would let the slop work on the bolt and even a grade 8 won't last like that...
     
  20. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Does this happen to all 2nd Gen 4X4\'s?

    My $.03 (the first one is free):

    I agree with Wes and Grim. Wes even has seen the pics of my 80 and ALL (yes some god forsaken number of them) rivits on it were removed by A. A stepped drill-bit set (start small and get bigger or B. A 7" and 4" grinder to remove the head, then with either method the rivits were punched through with a hammer and punch. I have replaced all with grade 8 bolts, washers, lockwashers, and nuts (yes the hardware guy loved me) and have truck pulled with it and never had a problem. The 78 I bought (and the one I'm currently looking for the engine crossmember for) had a crack in the crossmember due to loosening rivits. The mount was welded (where the crack was) and then welded to the frame (to fix the loose rivit). Now the crossmember cracked in a different spot (weld held up though) but it caused the frame to crack next to where it was welded /forums/images/icons/mad.gif!

    I was told there is some flex in the frame and the rivits allow for very slight movement without binding/cracking. As soon as it's welded it is stiff it can't budge. In some instances it may hold (especially if gussetted) but under abuse it will cause things to crack (instead of just loosen)....just some food for thought.

    I am currently looking to replace the crossmember (and Steve you can remove it without cutting it out /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif ) and bolt another one in after the damn crack in the frame is fixed.

    P.S. I looking for the engine crossmember out of an 85+, anyone have one......PM me please. Thanks
     

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