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Doing 14 Bolt FF gears, have some questions....

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by Waxer, May 25, 2003.

  1. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    We got the carrier pulled and the pinion out. We have already replaced the bearing races and inner bearing on the pinion, now comes the crush sleeve and outer bearing. The question is, how far down do we press the outer bearing down so that we can put the yoke back on and set the preload?

    We are kind of shady on how to continue since we aren't sure about the crush sleeve part.

    Any help would be appreciated.
     
  2. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Ok, the main thing here in order to set the pinion pre-load is to have a press and an inch-lbs. torque wrench. A good impact gun would help, too.

    First off, since you already have the inner bearing pressed on the pinion, go ahead and slide the pinion into the support case.

    The trick to getting the crush sleeve to actually "crush" is to place it on a press and slightly crush it so it will have some "give" because if you try to just assemble everything and use an impact gun or breaker bar to tighten everything, you will find that it...just...won't...work. Simply "crush" the sleeve slightly but not much and then slide it over the pinion shaft.

    Next, install the outer bearing and then the yoke. I say yoke before the seal so you can tighten everything and get it to torque BEFORE you do the seal. This way if you don't have the crush sleeve "crushed" down enough, you can simply back off the nut and remove the yoke to get the outer bearing and sleeve out. All that without damaging the seal. Get the whole thing tightened down while checking with the inch-lbs. torque wrench (bar type preferred) and check for readings of between 25-35 inch-lbs. (new bearings) or 5-15 inch-lbs. (old bearings). To do this, you have to use the torque wrench with a socket to fit over the nut and turn it while you read the increments to the specs you need. If its reading under the desired numbers, keep tightening and checking until the spec is within range. If you go too tight, you will need a new crush sleeve as they cannot be reused once they have collapsed beyond their recommended specs.

    Once you have achieved the desired torque reading, remove the nut and yoke and install the seal. Do the whole procedure again, to make sure the specs are correct again.

    Thats all there is to it. Its not quite as easy as it sounds as getting the sleeve to crush is the hardest part, IMO. Just make sure you have a press, inch-lbs. torque wrench, socket to fit the nut, and a good bench vise to hold the support case while you work on it.

    Oh yeah, do all the tightening and readings with the pinion by itself, not with the ring gear mated to it. Thats what the backlash is for.

    Another tip: to make it easier on you and so you don't take a chance of damaging the support case, bolt it back onto the 14FF housing and do the work under the truck. It will hold better and won't move around on you. Just make sure the ring gear and carrier are out first. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  3. tarussell

    tarussell 1/2 ton status

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    Everything said above is exactly what you need to do !!!!! remember to lightly grease or oil the bearings so your not getting a false reading on your pinion pre-load- you don't want to have your bearings dry or leave the protective film on them while doing this .
    Good luck , Tom
     
  4. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    When we first cracked open the diff cover we wanted to check the existing back lash to see what it was. We couldn't get any measurement from it. It almost looked like the pinion gear and ring gear were 1 and 1.

    It has a detroit locker in there so I'm hoping that fact isn't going to screw us up with any of it. Is that the case?

    Thanks for all the help..




    [ QUOTE ]


    Another tip: to make it easier on you and so you don't take a chance of damaging the support case, bolt it back onto the 14FF housing and do the work under the truck. It will hold better and won't move around on you. Just make sure the ring gear and carrier are out first. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Is this the part where you put something on the yoke so it wont spin on you while you tighten up the nut?
     
  5. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Another tip: to make it easier on you and so you don't take a chance of damaging the support case, bolt it back onto the 14FF housing and do the work under the truck. It will hold better and won't move around on you. Just make sure the ring gear and carrier are out first. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Is this the part where you put something on the yoke so it wont spin on you while you tighten up the nut?




    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep, fastening the support case back to the housing will do just that....hold it in place and yes, you should use something to hold the yoke to prevent it from spinning. I use a large pipe wrench as its the only tool I have around here to use for that.

    Most shops have a special tool that has a long handle and slots on 2 sides to where you can bolt the tool to the yoke and it will also have a hole in the middle of it large enough to stick a socket in to tighten the nut. Most of these tools I've seen are around 24" long. I have seen some homemade tools like this, too.

    But I find a pipe wrench works just as good and is more readily available, and probably cheaper, too. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  6. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    Ok then I have something to hold that thing steady.

    Here's a pic of the pinion support all cleaned with new races installed and the new pinion gear with the fresh bearing just pressed onto it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Thanks for the help. I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.
     
  7. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Steve, another quick tip:

    Before you take the new crush sleeve to the press to "crush" it slightly, put the old one side by side with the new one to give you an idea of how much to crush it by. Just leave the new one slightly taller than the old one. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  8. Muddytazz

    Muddytazz 1 ton status

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    What is the purpose of crushing the sleeve before you install it? I've never looked at that end of a diff, so i don't know what alls involved.
     
  9. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    Ok we tried crushing it with my 12 ton shop press and could barely change it at all. We prolly crushed it a total of .005"

    We have the pinion on the housing and are using a breaker bar with cheater pipe to further crush the sleeve until we take the slack out between the 2 bearings. Right now we have very little slack left. We also just grenaded my 1/2" drive breaker bar so we are headed to Sears to get a replacement and a bigger breaker bar (3/4")

    Yes I don't have a decent impact gun, just a Harbor Freight cheapy that only spits out 230 ft/lbs of torque, when it really only puts out about 150.


    Will keep you updated.


    Steven
     
  10. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What is the purpose of crushing the sleeve before you install it? I've never looked at that end of a diff, so i don't know what alls involved.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The purpose is to make the tightening sequence easier when you tighten the pinion nut down. If you don't crush the sleeve slightly, its gonna be harder than hell to even get the pinion nut to go down at all. Even a strong impact gun will, in most cases, not budge the sleeve. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif Therefore using a press to compress the sleeve ever so slightly will allow it to start to "give" when you tighten the nut. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  11. Muddytazz

    Muddytazz 1 ton status

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    Makes sense, I've never done gears, and was just curious /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  12. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    WHat Wes is saying I learned the hard way!!!! It's blumen true too! I rebuilt my Dad's rear end in his 3/4 ton van and put new bearings and everything in it... But when it came to putting the new crush sleeve and all, my 500 ft/lb impact wouldn't budge the thing! I ended up using a jack and a breaker bar but couldn't get enough swing on it to work! Crush it just slightly and it gets it over the hard part so it can do it's job like a spring ish, instead of a spacer! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  13. K5MONSTERCHEV

    K5MONSTERCHEV 1/2 ton status

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    While your crushing the crush sleeve, just make sure the sub carrier moves and then you can tell how tight to go. Keep sliding it up and down until it doesnt slide any more, bud dont go so tight that it wont spin. Does that make sense? Its sort of hard to explain.
     
  14. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> It is possible to crush it using the breaker bar, but you're just as likely to break something before it actually crushes. I had the pinion assembly clamped in a big vice and used a breaker bar with a 4 foot steel pipe on it. Both feet planted firmly on the front of the workbench to give my 250 lb ass more leverage and I got it crushed. Willyswanter tried the same method and his vice exploded, hopefully he sees this thread so he can post some pics, it was pretty impressive. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif </font>
     
  15. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="green"> It is possible to crush it using the breaker bar, but you're just as likely to break something before it actually crushes. I had the pinion assembly clamped in a big vice and used a breaker bar with a 4 foot steel pipe on it. Both feet planted firmly on the front of the workbench to give my 250 lb ass more leverage and I got it crushed. Willyswanter tried the same method and his vice exploded, hopefully he sees this thread so he can post some pics, it was pretty impressive. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is why I prefer to have the support case fastened to the housing so it won't move at all as long as the wheels are chocked or you have the parking brake set.

    I have seen a tractor repair shop tighten these nuts on a vise, but that was a HUGE bench vise for the much larger stuff found on tractors. These guys still had to use the press to give the sleeve some slack before they could torque it down. They even tried some 600 ft.-lbs. impact gun they had and it still would not budge. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  16. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    Wes,

    Ok we got the whole thing together and I have 2 gear patterns to show you.

    First we got the pinion pre-load set at 30-35 inch lbs. I was lucky we didn't go past that, but from what I could read its in that range.

    This first set of gear pattern pics is with the backlash at .005

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    This next set of pics is with the back lash at .007

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Both gear patterns are with no shims at all on the pinion flange. We tried it first with the same amount it had which was .010. Then out of pure inexperience we added more and more until we had a crappy pattern.

    Then we started taking them away until the pattern kept getting better until the 2 that you see. Like I said, both are with no shim at all.

    Do these patterns look acceptable to you?

    Thanks for any and all help. I Couldn't have done this without you.


    Steven
     
  17. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    Specs for back lash are .006"-.010"
    Bearing pre-load for new bearings is 20-35 in/lb's.

    Thats from the Yukon Gear intall sheet thingy. /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif

    The second set of patterns looks best to me.
    On the 1st set it seems to be a bit close to the flank of the tooth on the drive side. And it's under spec if it's at .005".
    2nd set looks a bit more centered and is within spec at .007"

    If it were me, I'd run with it set as it is in the second set of pics. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  18. Waxer

    Waxer 1/2 ton status Author

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Specs for back lash are .006"-.010"
    Bearing pre-load for new bearings is 20-35 in/lb's.

    Thats from the Yukon Gear intall sheet thingy. /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif

    The second set of patterns looks best to me.
    On the 1st set it seems to be a bit close to the flank of the tooth on the drive side. And it's under spec if it's at .005".
    2nd set looks a bit more centered and is within spec at .007"

    If it were me, I'd run with it set as it is in the second set of pics. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The Chilton's manual pages we have on the 14 bolt gear install state the following specs.

    For backlash the general range is .003 to .012
    with the optimal range being .005 to .008

    Following this we are in the optimal spec for both patterns.


    Pinion bearing pre-load as stated by this manual say for new bearings 25-35 inch pounds and old bearings 15-25 inch pounds.
     
  19. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Steve, both patterns without the shims look like the pinion is too close to the ring gear.

    What I want to see is some more pics. Take some more pics starting with the THINNEST shim you have and set the backlash and get the pics up. Do this with the thinnest and next-to-thinnest shims and let us see the pics again.

    Its a little harder to do this without actually being there with you to visually see it. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  20. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    When I had my gears installed in my 14b,the owner down at San Marcos Transmission invited me down to show me how they set it up. He does a lot of gear work for Airborn Express's van/truck fleet and had a lot to say about different backlash settings and how they effect longevity. The have a set of honed carrier bearings which allows them to slip it on and off the carrier repeatedly with little effort so they can adjust the shims as needed, then install the new bearings on final assembly. Apperently it is common for 14 bolt carrier bearings to spin the race on the carrier and ruin the carrier so he suggested this method to prevent repeated removal of a new bearing on the race. He was saying that they run many of the 14's at .002 - .005 backlash. Any less and they heat up and bind, any more and thier lifespan shortens. He made this recomendation from servicing a fleet of delivery vehicles and having them return over many years with 100,000+ miles on them. He opted to run the tighter side at .002 on mine because of the slop in the detroit locker - so far he's been right. The diff never heated up (I gave it the recommended slow breakin) and has been extremely reliable. I checked it all recently with a 12,000 mile fluid change and no metal on the magnet! Anyway, hope this helps with your search for details - looks like you got some good help already.
     

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