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Dumb Question about High Pinions

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by rigdonhome, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    OK, I've never seen a high pinion setup in person, so I haven't been able to inspect closely.

    *****
    Scenario 1:

    Question 1-1: Is a high pinion diff just a regular diff flipped over?

    Question 1-2: If so, then is there anything done internally to the case to oil the pinion/bearings properly?

    Question 1-3: Depending on Q1&Q2 above, can you simply flip any diff over and have a high pinion setup?
    *****

    *****
    Scenario 2:

    Question 2-4: Is a high pinion diff is a different design entirely?

    Question 2-5: If so, who makes them and in what denominations, i.e. Dana60, 14bff, etc.?

    Question 2-6: What are the major differences in the design and why are they different from a normal differential?
    *****

    I have had plenty of differentials apart in my time and the main thing that I wonder about is getting proper lubrication to the pinion and its bearings should it be on the top of the case rather than the bottom.

    Thanks,
    Sal
     
  2. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    This is what i have understood, so don't take it as the absolute truth.

    [ QUOTE ]
    1: Is a high pinion diff just a regular diff flipped over?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    not really--the gears are reverse cut, and the pinion is basically on the "top/back" of the housing instead of in the "center/back" this sets your driveshaft up higher than a regulr diff.

    [ QUOTE ]
    1-2: If so, then is there anything done internally to the case to oil the pinion/bearings properly

    [/ QUOTE ]
    since the pinion is higher the housing has extra passages for the oil to get up to it. the drain plug is also higher to allow for more oil.

    [ QUOTE ]
    1-3: Depending on Q1&Q2 above, can you simply flip any diff over and have a high pinion setup?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    no--?? you will be riding on the wrong side of the gears and when you put it in drive it would go in reverse??? someone correct me if im wrong---this is an assumption. and you wont get enough oil to the pinion resulting in failure.

    [ QUOTE ]
    -5: If so, who makes them and in what denominations, i.e. Dana60, 14bff, etc.?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    the ones i know of from the factory are only front dana 60's and front dana 44's from ford only. and Toyota makes front and rear HP's for the FJ80's i believe (90-98 landcrusiers (not 100%sure on names or years. for toyota.)

    you can get aftermarket 60s and mabye 44's from places like Dynatrack and the like. front and rears (mabye not 44's)

    [ QUOTE ]
    -6: What are the major differences in the design and why are they different from a normal differential?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    where the pinion is, reverse cut gears for the front (not sure on the rears) and the oil passages for the pinion and the fill plug.

    oh and since fron the factory only ford offered HP the diff is on the driver side instead of passanger like ours.
     
  3. K5MONSTERCHEV

    K5MONSTERCHEV 1/2 ton status

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    There ya go! All about high pinions!
     
  4. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    Don't forget the D28/35 TTB in the BII/Ranger/Explorer is high pinion. Add the 8.8" IFS front from the 97-up F150/250. Also the Dana 50 (TTB or solid).

    The Jeep Cherokee(XJ) and Comanche(MJ) use a high-pinion Dana 30 up front.

    GM's IFS in high-pinion. Comes in the 8.25" & 9.25" versions for fullsize, and 7.25" in the S-trucks.

    Dodge's AAM-built front axles ('03-up?) are high-pinion. (I believe these are the same as the GM ones.)
     
  5. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    This is what i have understood, so don't take it as the absolute truth.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ahhh... I trust you just as much as the next guy... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    1: Is a high pinion diff just a regular diff flipped over?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    not really--the gears are reverse cut, and the pinion is basically on the "top/back" of the housing instead of in the "center/back" this sets your driveshaft up higher than a regulr diff.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are there any limitations to the gearing ratios available due to the reverse cut?

    I have to wonder if the extra expense is really cost effective compared to a high-angle driveline? I realize there are added benefits to getting the driveshaft higher up, but is the main objective ground clearance for the shaft itself or is it for better angles?

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    1-2: If so, then is there anything done internally to the case to oil the pinion/bearings properly

    [/ QUOTE ]
    since the pinion is higher the housing has extra passages for the oil to get up to it. the drain plug is also higher to allow for more oil.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Does this mean a different casting, or machining in an existing casting?

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    1-3: Depending on Q1&Q2 above, can you simply flip any diff over and have a high pinion setup?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    no--?? you will be riding on the wrong side of the gears and when you put it in drive it would go in reverse??? someone correct me if im wrong---this is an assumption. and you wont get enough oil to the pinion resulting in failure.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif Yup. The top of the tires are traveling the opposite direction as the bottom, so if you flipped it over you would be going backwards. I had to think this one over for a while. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    -5: If so, who makes them and in what denominations, i.e. Dana60, 14bff, etc.?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    the ones i know of from the factory are only front dana 60's and front dana 44's from ford only.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Any chance they can be fabbed to fit under a K5? Is the diff on the wrong side? And how rare are they to begin with?

    [ QUOTE ]
    and Toyota makes front and rear HP's for the FJ80's i believe (90-98 landcrusiers (not 100%sure on names or years. for toyota.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Will the Landcruiser High Pinion diffs fit a K5, and if so would I want one? I know nothing about the Toyota HP's...

    [ QUOTE ]
    you can get aftermarket 60s and mabye 44's from places like Dynatrack and the like. front and rears (mabye not 44's)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Any ballpark guess on cost?

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    -6: What are the major differences in the design and why are they different from a normal differential?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    where the pinion is, reverse cut gears for the front (not sure on the rears) and the oil passages for the pinion and the fill plug.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Does, say, a 'regular' 4.10 gearset have the same number of teeth as a 'reverse cut' 4.10 gearset? I had some basic exposure to gear design but don't remember any of it. It seems that it would be the same, but I could also see a completely different helix shape to the gears due to the different location of the pinion.

    [ QUOTE ]
    oh and since fron the factory only ford offered HP the diff is on the driver side instead of passanger like ours.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ahhh... Here it gets tricky. As I recall, the IFS GM trucks use the driver side as well. Therefore, the questions become:

    Driver1: If I graft in a 'Furd' D60 high pinion, can I use the t-case out of an IFS truck to get the shafts in the proper locations? and...

    Driver2: If the above works, what's the toughest t-case they put in the IFS trucks?
     
  6. rigdonhome

    rigdonhome 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Don't forget the D28/35 TTB in the BII/Ranger/Explorer is high pinion. Add the 8.8" IFS front from the 97-up F150/250. Also the Dana 50 (TTB or solid).

    The Jeep Cherokee(XJ) and Comanche(MJ) use a high-pinion Dana 30 up front.

    GM's IFS in high-pinion. Comes in the 8.25" & 9.25" versions for fullsize, and 7.25" in the S-trucks.

    Dodge's AAM-built front axles ('03-up?) are high-pinion. (I believe these are the same as the GM ones.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You must have posted this while I was trying to figure out all the quote/endquote locations for my last reply! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    So on the IFS GM stuff, what are the corresponding options for t-cases from an IFS truck which would have the proper shaft outputs? I have a 203 but would most likely go to a 205 as I get more serious about my mods. When did the 205 die (did it ever?) and what replaced it as far as bulletproof stuff?

    Sal
     
  7. u2slow

    u2slow 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]

    So on the IFS GM stuff, what are the corresponding options for t-cases from an IFS truck which would have the proper shaft outputs?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    All the IFS trucks have a driver's side drop t-case. This would be suitable for driving the Ford front axle. They'll fit behind the TH700, TH400, and SM465 with stock adapters. They also use a VSS instead of a mechanical speedo - this may be a problem for some. Another t-case option is to use a custom Doubler mating a Ford 205 with your existing 203. Another otpion still is to run the a divorced Ford 205 behind your existing t-case (wheelbase permitting of course!)

    79-older F150(SuperCab only), F250, F350 front axles have the same spring perch spacing as the Chevy. However, they weren't high-pinion until late-77. And the D60 version was 78-79 only in some F250s and all F350s.

    The high-pinion D60 came back again for '85, but it had more pumpkin offset. Basically translates into a re-tube/re-shaft job or outboard the front springs (36" spring centers, IIRC).



    [ QUOTE ]

    When did the 205 die (did it ever?) and what replaced it as far as bulletproof stuff?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    IFS 1-tons received a Borg-Warner t-case instead of the NP205. The 1370 was replaced by the 4470 around 91-92 or so. The 4401 was used concurrently. The xx70 cases were used in the heavier 11,000 & 12,000lb GVW models. The 4401 in the 10,000lb GVW and under. All three are planetary aluminum cases with 2.69 low. All have PTO access. All but the regular-cab longbox used a fixed yoke. The xx70's use a magnetic clutch for engagement, whereas the 4401 is conventional.
     
  8. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    High pinion housings are cast specifically for that application, to make certain that the pinion bearings always get plenty of lube. Keep in mind that you don't just need to keep the bearings wet, they also need plenty of flow of the lube to keep the bearings cool.

    You also can't just flip the housing because then the spring pad that is cast into the housing would end up in the wrong place. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    Dynatrac will pull the tubes out of your low pinion Dana 60 and install them in a high pinion Dana 60 housing for $900. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif Mike (prjt_blzr) just had this done to his Dana 60 to keep the front driveshaft angle from being too severe after he rotated his 205 to make it flush with the bottom of the crossmember. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  9. leadfoot067

    leadfoot067 1/2 ton status

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    the way to go would be a ford 205 drivers side driveshaft,and a high pinion 44 or 60 from a ford....ive thought about this myself,i already have a doubler so a ford 205 would be easy to swap for me /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif i bet if you check the ORD board youll find the t-case swap info...
     

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