Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

Engine Building Advice Needed

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by TexasT, May 13, 2003.

  1. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Well after the oil pump thread turned nasty, I thought I'd start a new one.

    I got the engine out, stripped down and the block rods, crank, and pistons to the machine shop. I think the heads will go too but I haven't taken them there yet.

    The block has been bored .040 over but the machinist thought we might be able to hone and reuse the .040 pistons as they are some good sealed power ones.

    The crank is junk as it was already turned .020 under and the rod bearing that spun pretty much wiped the crank out on that journal. I bought what is suppose to be a standard crank from ebay so we will see if it can be used. Along with the crank came rods and pistons. I beleive they are standard also as that is what the seller sold them to me as.

    I think that I want to go to with some heavy duty rod bolts. What is the difference between the ARP and the Mr.Gasket SPS bolts? I notice that the ARP has several grades and I think the 190000psi ones would be just dandy for me but the sps bolts seem to be less expensive.

    Also this engine had a Melling 77HV oil pump in it but it also was equipped with the nylon collar. I believe I will be going with a Melling std volume pump as this seems to be plenty stout. Any thoughts on this decision? Also will be spendng the $15 for the steel drive shaft? Remember no flaming, only constuctive criticism allowed(haha). Thanks for your input.

    Rich
     
  2. bigmack

    bigmack 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Posts:
    478
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Aftermarket rod bolts are always a good idea. I don't know the difference between the ARP and Mr.Gasket, but I can say anything with the ARP name on it is a good quality product. If your'e engine is basically stock, then a standard oil pump should be fine, but I've always used high volume pumps with no problems, and a good oil pump shaft with a steel sleeve is another good idea. You might check out jrmotorsports.com, they sell reconditioned 350 (5.7") rods that have been cleaned, magnafluxed, etc., with 190,000 psi bolts for about 99 bucks per set. Between me and a buddy, we have probably used 8-10 sets of them. Just something else to consider.
     
  3. BigBurban350

    BigBurban350 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Posts:
    711
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Michigan
    High volume or high pressure pumps are not needed on an enigne unless you have excessive bearing clearances. Excessive bearing clearances are bad. By installing one of those pumps your engine just wastes horsepower. Some high performance engines actually use low volume pumps for those few extra horses, they can do that because their bearing clearances are perfect. /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/burb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif
     
  4. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Got some rod bolts from ebay

    These rod bolts came with Moroso instructions and ARP inthe heads of the bolts. Who makes Moroso rod bolts? anyone? These I believe were a good deal ($9.99 + $9.50 shipping). We'll have to see how long the engine stays together.

    Also the used crank, rods, and pistons from ebay might turn into a great deal ($40 + $66 shipping) as the original was junk. I think I can resell the extras(Rods and STD stock pistons for a 454 if anyone needs them cheap) to recoup some of the expense.

    Anyone have thoughts on assembly lube? I'm thinking of just on the cam and lifters and going with 30wt oil for the rest of the moving parts. Your thoughts please.

    While I'm on the subject of cam I've decided to splurge and buy a new one. I bought a used one from ebay that the seller claimed is from a 10K mile engine that grenaded( it was only $30 with shipping). After some further research and thought I think the best bet is to buy a new one( so the used one is up for grabs). I'm thinking of a Melling as this seems to be the economical route. Was thinking of going 200 to 230 duration on intake and exhaust with .500 lift. Anyone have something they are running that they are happy with that you could share the specs.

    Thanks for the input.

    Rich
     
  5. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

    Joined:
    May 30, 2001
    Posts:
    17,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IL, USA
    Re: Got some rod bolts from ebay

    Sounds like you're on the right track. Mr. Gasket is garbage, go with the ARPs.

    I HIGHLY recommend the steel sleeved driveshaft. You can go with a high volume pump if you'd like, but a standard pump will work fine as well.

    I'd get a new cam. If you do choose to use the used one, get new lifters and break it in like a new one.

    I usually fill the oil pump with assembly lube as well as use it on the cam and the bearings. I lube the bores with oil. If you only use oil on the bearings it tends to find its way out before you start the engine.

    Good luck, I personally wish I had a 454 to play with. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  6. MousePowrd

    MousePowrd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Posts:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Saginaw, MI
    Re: Got some rod bolts from ebay

    Screw the 454. Put a Buick turbo in it /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    Go with an Edelbrock Performer cam. It makes great torque and will easily spin to 5000+ rpm (I have one in my boat, it moves 6000#'s quite well)

    Set your compression ratio to between 9:1 and 9.5:1. This way you can probably get away with midgrade gas and have more power.

    As far as heads try to find a set of used oval port heads (NOT the "peanut" port heads from 1 ton p/u's) These are awesome heads that build great torque but they dont destroy top end like peanut port heads. I dont have a casting number handy, but can look one up if you need it.

    Getting 450 lb/ft of torque out of a 454 is childs play if you take your time.
     
  7. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    If I had more time...

    Trust me if time and money were no object I'd be droppin' in a 455 Buick.

    In the interest of time (and money) a rebuild(dictated by the nasty rod knock) of what was there is in order. It will be powering the '85 /forums/images/graemlins/burb.gif and towing what I believe will be a 10K # trailer(at least this is what the trailer is rated for). low end grunt with as good a gas mileage as possible and stayin' togeter for the haul is the goal. Screamin' horsepower is left to the cars in the trailer. Thanks for the input.

    Rich
     
  8. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

    Joined:
    May 30, 2001
    Posts:
    17,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IL, USA
    Re: Got some rod bolts from ebay

    [ QUOTE ]
    Go with an Edelbrock Performer cam. It makes great torque and will easily spin to 5000+ rpm (I have one in my boat, it moves 6000#'s quite well)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'd keep compression low. 8.5:1 on a big block is plenty.

    Don't use the Edelbrock cams. They're too mild and they're old technology. Comp and Crane have much better grinds.
     
  9. MousePowrd

    MousePowrd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Posts:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Saginaw, MI
    Re: Got some rod bolts from ebay

    I'd keep compression low. 8.5:1 on a big block is plenty.

    Don't use the Edelbrock cams. They're too mild and they're old technology. Comp and Crane have much better grinds.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mild is what he wants. Mild cams make lots of low end cylinder pressure perfect for moving heavy loads. Old technology? Most of GM's grinds are over 30 years old and they seem to hold up ok. He's not building a top fuel dragster. Besides I only recommend what I have tried personally, and the Performer is a winner in my book
     
  10. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Good Stuff

    Trust me I am open to any and all input.

    Sounds like the 'cutting edge' cam grinders are doing their homework and charging accordingly. Unfortunately the budget doesn't allow for $300 worth of cam, lifters and assorted other needs in the cam department.

    This is why I was thinking a Melling cam. What specs does one of these recommended cams have so I can try to match it without breaking the budget. I know the ramps will be different but we can go by lobe center line, intake/exhaust duration and lift and get something that should work well.

    Remember, just a budget over haul to get the trailer towed. Thanks a Bunch to all.

    Rich
     
  11. 88Silverado

    88Silverado 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Posts:
    2,664
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Quartz Hill, So. Cal
    Re: Good Stuff

    Why are you changing rod bolts?
    Stock bolts are fine. I have built several smallblocks using stock rods, bolts and cranks and spin them into the 6500 range. I have never seen a rod bolt break.
    You have to remember up until recently ARP and all the other after market stuff wasnt available. Look at the LS6 GM built..all GM parts and Tons of power. Heck, during the 60's and 70's we were building screamer motors using standard GM parts.
    If you plan on spinning it to pretty high RPM's, get it balanced, otherwise the stock rods, bolts etc should be fine. The performer manifold will pull to 6500rpm's and has good low end torque. If your going to use it for towing, put a RV cam or something like the comp 4x4 cams in it.
    Stock oil pump will be fine too.
     
  12. TexasT

    TexasT Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Posts:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Project is underway

    I got the components to assemble the shortblock back from the Machine Shop. I am glad I bought the used rotating assembly as we ended up using the crank and rods. The crank that came out was already .020 under on both mains and rods, and with the spun rod bering the crank was as the machinist put it a 'boat anchor'. The new,used crank was blasted and cut .010 under on both the main and rod journals. Unfortunately the pitting was bad on the rod journals that they had to be cut another.010 for a total of .020 under on the rods. I also had the rods bolts installed and the big ends resized. As for a reason, for about $75 extra wouldn't you do it just for some extra insurance?

    Here is my poor man's rod vise. [image]

    http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/pd3cd1d500468f3f20c04b768236f46bf/fc033a10.jpg.orig.jpg [/image]

    I got the crank laid in and the mains torqued down. [image]

    http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/pf8b7ecec50646a9c291cc828ce4b06aa/fc033aca.jpg.orig.jpg
    [/image]

    Here is a picture of the cam specs. I hope it works good. [image]

    http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p1fc13fe8616560e58888285be2af2c03/fc033c77.jpg.orig.jpg
    More pix if interested [/image]

    I go to pick up the heads tommorrow. I hope to have it up and running by the weekend.

    Rich
     
  13. 4DiggerDan

    4DiggerDan 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Posts:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Montucky, USA
    [ QUOTE ]
    High volume or high pressure pumps are not needed on an enigne unless you have excessive bearing clearances. Excessive bearing clearances are bad. By installing one of those pumps your engine just wastes horsepower. Some high performance engines actually use low volume pumps for those few extra horses, they can do that because their bearing clearances are perfect. /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/burb.gif /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Wellllll.... Excessive clearance and racing clearance are two different things.. Then you've got "half groove" main bearings (stock) and "full groove" main bearings, then you've got "3/4 groove" main bearings. The amount of groove determines how much oil gets to the rod bearing and when it gets there... Between clearances and main bearing designs there could easily be 15 different types of pumps out there and each variation of pressure and volume could have its own niche...

    In a race engine, where you go from 6700 RPM to completely out of the gas at least twice each lap, YOU NEED A THICKER OIL WEDGE BETWEEN THE BEARINGS AND CRANK THAN STOCK!!!!!! Especially in a class like a "hobby" stock where you have to use all stock [naughty word] (crank rods and pistons.) Thats why our "hobby" engines come with TWO sets of balanced rods and an extra crank /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif A stock fit rod and main bearing wouldn't make it through two races with a standard volume pump spinning 6700 RPM (believe me, I know...)

    In a 4x4 that sees 5500 once in a great while, you don't need a high volume pump


    Oh yeah... Buy the ARP's. I've never once seen one let go in a race engine. I've seen rods completely grenade around them and they were still there in one piece holding two chunks of rod together. They're well worth the money.
     
  14. Sparky87k5

    Sparky87k5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    May 6, 2001
    Posts:
    726
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lynden, Washington, 4 miles from Canada
    Re: Project is underway

    I run a stock GM marine cam that has same specs as Edelbrock's Performer cam for BBC. 218I/228E duration @ .050 lift & .500 lift I&E advanced 4 degrees. Idles smoothly and has a strong torque band from 2200 - 4500RPM but I think a cam with a little less duration would be even better on the low end. Something in the 210I/218E range.

    Couldn't get to your cam specs, would open.
     

Share This Page