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Fell in love with a 'Mog.........axle setup!!!

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Greg72, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Saw a real Mercedes UniMog at the Pleasanton Car Show today, and now I have visions of 404s dancing around in my head!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Those portal axles give the most insane clearance....and are just SO cool looking with those reduction boxes out at the wheels. I know that there are a couple of sources for 'Mog stuff....like Tibus Offroad and Exaxt, and they seem to have my basic questions answered right on thier websites, but I do have a few more:


    Pinion Conversion- Is this to shorten the pinion on the 404, sort of like the SYE kits on 208's or is this just to convert a weird Unimog flange to something "Chevy-like"?


    Portal Oiling/Cooling - I see this as one of the major drawbacks on the 404s. Since they were never designed for speeds above 55 mph, it seems like a tough choice if you actually wanted to use them and drive say, 75mph... I thought I'd heard about people modifying the portals to use an outboard oiling system with coolers and/or more fluid capacity to allow the portals to safely spin at higher RPM....can anyone confirm, or provide a link? /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


    Clearance - Boy those pinions sure look LOOOONG...oilpans and other parts might not play nicely at reasonable suspension lift heights. Plus the front pumpkin is on the "FORD" side, so if I decide to do a setup like this, I'll have to sell my existing Doubler/205???....


    7.56 Final Drive Ratio - 'Nuff Said! Both a blessing and a curse depending on whether you want to be able to drive it on the street/highway from time to time.



    I like the idea of simple cable actuated lockers (free with the axles!) and the strength of the 404s seems to be even better than a conventional D60/14BFF setup....since I'm doing a link-suspension design anyway, there don't seem to be THAT many complexities other than what I listed above.

    Any thoughts? I know that there's at least ONE person here who just finished a setup like this...... /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
     
  2. 87BrnRsd

    87BrnRsd 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    I dont know much about Unimog axles, but I may be able to help with one of your questions. You asked if there was ay way of putting on an oil cooler and maybe a larger capacity oil reservoir, but how exactly do you plan on going 75 mph with the low gears found on the unimog axles? I know that they have gear reduction, but isnt like 6.something as high as they can go? With that low of gears, wouldnt it be almost impossible to drive it on the highway with anything less than a 52" michelin? If that is as high as the gears will go, then your question is solved by not driving it on the highway. Just wondering.
    -Harrison
     
  3. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Well I know that "The Hulk" used an NP203 (installed backwards) to effectively create a 50% overdrive gear.... kind of a cool solution, but then your Doubler really isn't a Doubler anymore.....more like a Halfer /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    I haven't run all the calcs yet (I just fell in love this morning, remember?) but with an overdrive tranny (4L80E) and some 38.5's, and maybe a backwards 203, there has got to be a way to get reasonable engine RPMs. As I also said, I'm not trying for 85 - 100mph top end.....75 is about all I feel comfortable doing in a BIG truck anyway.



    /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  4. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Greg, the 404's are comparable to a dana 60 in strength... I've seen more than a few broken 404 portal boxes at the CalROCS comps and elsewhere.

    Anywho, with your questions on going fast, oiling, and strength, I would recommend a 406, 416, or U1300 style Mog axle. I have the 416's in the garage which are rated at 4 ton. There are some sets on pirate living with 50"+ tires. They use air lockers stock and straight cut portal gears which gets rid of the side loads on the portal housing which causes them to break.

    With the 416's and U1300's you can get models with "High speed" gears in them. The other mogs were built with a max of about 55 mph in mind while the high speeds can go 70+. They also have huge disc brakes compared to the drums used on the 404's.

    The Unimogs use a Torque Tube suspension setup, this is why you need a pinion conversion. Stock the driveshaft runs inside of a big steel tube which bolts solidly to the axle housing, you need a pinion conversion so you can run a normal style driveshaft. Exaxt makes a pretty short 404 pinion conversion but it's still going to be long.

    Heres a pic of a U1300, the 416's are idential other than being about 7" narrower or so in track width:

    [​IMG]

    Also, there is quite a bit of tech info on pbb under the mercedes forum.
     
  5. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Jason,

    Thanks for the quick reply....how did I know that YOU would be one of the first people to jump on this thread!!??? /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    I guess I missed your point about WHY the 406 and up axles are better for highway use....I know they are rated stronger overall, but what makes them more highway-friendly? Also, aren't the larger Mog axles a LOT more expensive and HEAVY??

    I was thinking 404s mostly to keep the weight close to a 1-Ton Chevy setup. I'm trying for "light" (in a relative way) in the '69 buildup, so slinging a set of 2000 Lb axles underneath probably isn't the way to go....plus I'm only going to use a 38.5" tire, so I'm not sure I need THAT much extra strength????


    ...finally, (and not to get too personal) what's the meaning of your new .sig??? Did you sell your Willy's project, and if so what the heck are you planning to do with those 'Mogs??? ......that's an insane pumpkin clearance pic BTW!!! /forums/images/graemlins/peace.gif
     
  6. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    For lightweight and the 38.5's the 404's should work just fine then...

    As far as high speeds, one of the problems is the drums, not just in the lack of stopping power, although they do just fine in a lightweight rig, the drums tend to keep the heat in the portal area and cause internal problems associated with that. Also, the 416's and 406's, in the highspeed versions, have high speed gears, referring to the ratio. They ratio is higher compared to the 404's making it easier to achieve higher top speeds. Mine have a final ratio of 6.527-1. With the 46" tires I'm going to run this will work quite well.

    I have seen buggies/trucks with 404's that have no problems going fast, they just have to overcome the gearing, the axle strength itself doesn't seem to be a problem.

    As far as the sig, someone on the ck5 and the orc forums like to change my sig for me every few months, don't know who it is but it happens /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif . But it is true though! I still have the willys body but I'm not going to use it, I'm going to just build a full tube buggy, a 3 seater, and it will use the 496, 4l80e, 416 axles.
     
  7. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    I just wish I could run up on a cheap set of the 416 or 1300s. As for high speed, just run 52" tires to offset the gearing. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    BTW, do the larger axles still have the pinion issues? I expect so, but don't recall having seen info on it in Sean's or any other thread...
     
  8. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Don Henry is upgrading from his 404s
    he breaks them with the 49s and 461 BBC
    with only 39s you would be in good shape to buy his fully setup pair
    if you want to do up your own he has a stack of them

    4 wheel steering Mogs are very cool
    if you want to run big power and big tires the 404 are not the ones to get as Willywanter mentioned

    the pinion conversions are usually just a 1410 yoke that matches the spline count
    then the pinion is drilled for a retaining bolt
    custom seal retainer added in place of the Mog torque tube

    it is amazing what a set of 49s will do
     
  9. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    OK, I'll bite....... /forums/images/graemlins/ears.gif

    Where is this fine gentleman located, and how might I reach him for pricing, info, etc.????


    Nevermind....I'm doing a little "keyword" searching on PBB and finding TeraDon?

    No website yet, but I'm still looking.
     
  10. az-k5

    az-k5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    There are disk conversions available and with the new after market super oils I think the heat issue can be overcome.
     
  11. afroman006

    afroman006 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    One other option you might want to look at is mog outers on GM centers. That John guy driving the blue and silver tube frame bronco in the 2002 Top Truck Challenge did exactly this with Ford 9" centers. I dont know what size tire he was running (I think 44's) but whatever they are he managed to run a 12.5 second quarter mile!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/yikes.gif Another thing, that reverse mounted 203 was behind a 203/205 doubler. If it were me I'd go custom. Get a Ford D60 housing cause its cheaper then re-tube to put pumkin on passenger side and put whatever Mog outers you want on there and go! I know it'd be expensive but you would have some badass uber-practical strong as [darn] axles and they'd be totally unique. Dont worry, I wont charge you anything for my engineering consulatation /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
     
  12. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    A ton of comp rigs already do this... They run a 9 inch with 404 outers. http://www.skunkworksfab.com makes some nice ones.

    [​IMG]

    You can't run a normal dana 60 style center section with them unless you plan on running a rear mounted engine... The mog portals are a 2 gear design so the ring and pinion need to turn the opposite direction you want your wheels to turn, hence the flipped 9" in the above pic.
     
  13. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    "Taradon"
    they are already Wilwood caliper disc brakes with custom cnc cut rotors
    4 wheel steering by Station
    $$$ but they are fully setup
     
  14. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Alright so how much does a set of these axles cost roughly?

    Greg- I didn't see you or scott at the goodguys car show on sunday.. I was there between 10-2. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
     
  15. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    404s can be had for under $3k a set, maybe a bit more for 2 steering axles. Quite a bit less in some of the adds I've seen on PBB. Of course to mount them you pretty much have to redo the suspension and drive lines, so the real cost is quite a bit more... I think they are all driver's side drop so you would need a new tcase, but that may not be correct.
     
  16. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    I have seen a front and rear 406/416 style axle going for about $3500-4500 a set. Wolfgang on PBB will sell a real nice set of U1300's for $5500 /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif I got lucky and got my perfect condition 416's with discs for $2500 and I picked them up in San Jose so I didn't have to pay shipping.

    The way I looked at it was this. I have a 14 bolt and dana 60 front for the buggy, both need gears and a rebuild. I could spend roughly $2500 rebuilding the 60 and about $800 rebuilding the 14 bolt with a detroit and an ARB and 35 spline stubs. So for $800 less than that I can get these axles with air lockers already in them and way stronger than a 60 or 14 bolt and I can sell the 60 for $800 or so to get back some of the cost. The only thing my 416's need are some pinion conversions and I'll be set.
     
  17. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    If you find another set of those, or want your money back, let me know. /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
     
  18. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    If you search the axles/tires/wheels for sale section on PBB for unimog there are a few sets floating around in there that haven't appeared to sell. I think some were around $3000 for 2 fronts or a front and rear.
     
  19. OL14BLAZ

    OL14BLAZ 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    Give this place a call if you want a good deal on a set of mog axles. He doesn't have them all the time, but when he does they are cheap.

    Example: Set of 406s for 1700.00, that was what I was quoted about a year ago.

    Of course he may have gone up on his prices by now, since they have become more popular. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


    Eric
     
  20. afroman006

    afroman006 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Fell in love with a \'Mog.........axle setup!!!

    So, why not flip a D60? Pinion oiling issues maybe. What abour a Ford Reverse Cut High pinion D60. C'mon I'm sure it could be done GM style somehow. I dont know how much Ford 9"ers cost but I'm sure its comparable to D60's. They seem to be all the rage these days with drag racers and truck dudes.
     

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