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First gen and 2nd gen

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by blazin_blazer, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    i understand why you can't put a 1st gen body on a 2nd gen frame, but will the leaf springs from a 2nd gen swap over to a 1st gen? I have a '68 SWB truck that I swapped the whole front cross member out of a '79 model truck and gained 5 lug disk brakes. so why can't I do the same with a 4wd. I used my trusty tape measurer and the rears measure the same on 1st gens and 2nd gens. I can only find a 6" lift for the 1st gen and I need more lift. Can I use 8" 2nd gen leaf springs in the rear and the 6" 1st gen leaf springs with a 1 1/2" shackle to gain the amout I need, as I have measured a slight difference in the front leaf springs between 1st and 2nd gens. It seems to me that the frames are the same between 1st and 2nd gen otherwise I wouldn't have been able to swap the '79 cross member and all over to the '68, it was bolt in swap, 2 holes to drill. I looked at catalogs and I see differences in how the frame is made, but it does not measure the same up front, could be the arch of the leaf spring throwing me off. the rear is the same according to the tape measurer. Also the talk about using 52" leaf springs up front providing double the lift, hence 2" lift = 4" of lift. How are you accomplishing this? I don't see how you bow the 52" leaf spring to fit the front. Can I just swap axles from 2nd gen into 1st gen if leaf springs and all won't swap over? I've read all the threads and have seen people ask this question but have yet to see a solid answer. I want to swap my leaf springs and axles out of my '80 model k5 that has been converted to 1 ton and lifted into my newly acquired '69 k5, is this possible or do I have to buy a new lift and just swap axles or is that even possible, my tape says the axels will swap i just hope i can swap springs and all. i have a burnt out '85 truck and plan on making the '80 a 2wd after i get all of my 1 ton and lift swapped so i can run my 39.5's on 69 k5.. Thanks for any and all replies in advance , I look forward to your experties and working through this problem Thank you R. Ray.
     
  2. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    For the 1st Gens:


    Rear springs are all the same length (as you already noticed) use what you like.

    Front springs are only 44" on a 1st Gen. You might be able to use a longer shackle to sneak a longer spring under there, but the position of the spring pin is going to determine the location of your front axle. You may end up slightly forward or slightly back from stock....and that will mess with steering linkage and driveshaft length.

    Also, your front pinion may end up either pointed up more than stock, or pointed down more. The position of the springpin on the "smile" of the spring will establish that angle, so it's something else to consider.

    4" springs are easy to find for a 1st Gen. ZeroRate blocks can add another 1" and if you swap in a D60 front, you'll gain about another 1/2" of effective lift over a D44. You can also use a 1", 2" or 3" body lift to get more clearance if you want..... plenty of options.

    You can also get a custom set of fronts made (what I did)...they can give you as much lift as you specify and will give you the best chances of keeping a decent ride (Though if you're looking for 6" of lift from a 44" spring it's pretty much guarenteed to be on the stiff side)
     
  3. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    hers what i've thought up

    http://www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/186602.html 6" front '69 lift springs with these http://www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/KG60001G1.html 1 1/2 front shackel lift, these are for 73-87 but lmc list front shackle kit as same between 1st gen and 2nd gen
    , then use these 8" rear springs 73-87 in the rear since they are same as 2nd gen
    http://www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/198702.html
    then put these on
    http://www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/573.html
    3" 69-72 blazer body lift ... that should yield between 10-11" wouldn't this clear my 39.5 SS TSL's? without cutting on the body? this would allow me to use my 1ton axels wouldn't it as the spring pad perches would fit, because spring measurement from side to side is same between 1st gen and second gen isnt it?or would I be better off to try and move the front spring mounts to match a 73-87 and use the hangers and shackle brackets off my '80 so that my 10' spring lift will swap over..i really dont want to do this much fab as i can sell my '80's lift for almost enuf to buy the parts i listed i would need about $50 more dollars...but i want to make sure a 2nd gen axel has spring pads in same place as 1st gen...the '69 i have has no front springs or axel and i could oly measure frome shakle hole in frame to front spring eye hole and it was shorter...but the rear has factory springs and a 12 bolt and they measured the same as my '80 if i use '69 front springs will my d60 bolt up to these correctly..i realize the shackle lift will throw pinion downward but i was planning on using shims and a tranfercase lowering kit...which way would be better..i think i want to go with '69 springs and longer shakles with body lift as i have read that a body lift keeps your center of gravity down and i've had a few cases where the'80 scared me because it seemed a little top heavy with 3 people in it...is '69 stock spring pads the same width as 2nd gen or am i going to have to do some fabing...looks like the should be same as i said in first post a'79 front crossmember fit onto a '68 just fine so frames should be same width and lmc shows springs fitting the same just different pockets for spring eye..will both ways work with just a difference in center of gravity..the 6"with shackles and 8" in rear are both tuff country and they have to ride better than the 10" Superlift swamp runner series i have now and my steering sould be better suited as i had 4" drop drag link and 4" steering arm which should be better suited for the new set up i'm thinking about....what should i do about brakes? will my mc and booster change over along with my proportioning valve and all lines including stainless units at wheels? because i don't like the looks of the 1's on the 69 thats been in the weeds since 2002..plus i've redid all my lines with stainless, i know i can mke them and proportion valve work but what about master cylinder and booster..i would also like to swap my tilt telescopic steering colum out of a caddy i put into my '80 ..is this possible without turn world on its ear?
     
  4. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    not talkin about 52" on my 1st gen

    ..was just wondering how u guys doing it to ur 2nd gens...thought i might could do the same with my stock 2nd gen front springs on my 1st gen spring hangers as they are shorter wanted to know how u guys puttin longer spring on the front....thinkin i may could do same with stock 2nd gen springs on my 1st gen...are u using longer shakles or are you guys rearching the springs to fit or would i be better off buying the parts i listed or puttin my 2nd gen hangers on my 1st gen so that a regular 2nd gen lift would fit my 1st gen ...thinking i may sell my 10 swamp runner series and getting the 12" swamp runner and a 3" body lift so i can run 49" iroks...some1 has to have pointers let me hear them
     
  5. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Let me make a suggestion because I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way:

    Please do something about the way you are creating these posts. They are like one long run-on sentence with about 100 questions buried in them.

    I spent a lot of time reading your first post, just so I could understand what you were trying to ask....when I saw your second post I just gave up and didn't even bother trying to decipher it.

    This isn't high-school, and you're not graded on your grammar or spelling. However, I think you are seeing that it DOES have an effect on how willing people will be to read your posts and try to answer them.

    I'm not trying to be an a$$.....just trying to help you along a little, since I know that you're pretty new around here. :thumb:



    :usaflag:
     
  6. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    i understand

    i understand and i wouldn't never consider sum1 an A$$ for giving me constructive critisism. i really did bad in enlish and am not sure how or where paragraphs should start or end.
    Iwill try and do better..i find myself rereading my posts and adding comas because they confuse me.
    I will start writing my post in more of a outline type setup...i do understand because like i said i lose myself sometime reading them back to myself and wind up adding alot of commas
    i guess i could write them like i do and then as i reread them add enter to step sentences to next line.that is how i did this is this better. thank you just wish it would get rid of hecklers that waste bandwidth!
     
  7. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    try again

    . greg you seem like a super guy with alot of knowledge and thanks for the pointer.

    . my first post was showing parts on how to acomplish a goal, but i have recently learned alittle more about the site and have read several tech articals..especially the 1 about putting 52" springs up front. i didnt realize it was such a complicated chore.

    . my 2nd post was about how the lift kits for first gens are getting harder to find especially anything over 6"...i think they dont exist.

    . in my 1st post i asked about combining 2nd gen 8" rear spring since they are the same and using 6" 1st gen with a 1 1/2" shackle lift up front to get about 8".

    . then i read the tech article about putting the 52" springs up front and realized it was a very involved project.

    . So i got to thinking why couldn't us 1st gen's do something similar but instead of making it for 52" spring make it so a 2nd gen lift would be a bolt on under my '69. either by moving our existing mounts or using mounts off of a second gen.

    . i have a rolled 2nd gen and frame is twisted so i can't get measurments i trust...i would like to know the lenghth of the 2nd gen front springs hangers as opposed to the 44" you said was under my 1st gen.

    . i want to do something similar to make a 2nd gen lift fit my 1st gen like a bolt in.

    . i really not looking for flex as much as i'm looking for height, ride comfort would be nice but not requirment to an extent. i live about 10 miles from mississippi river and when it floods its fun to ride on the wildlife reserve when its under 2-4 ft of water. after it goes down there are places you need massive tires to get thru be cause they are eat out by 44" tires. i just have 39.5's boggers in rear and regular tsl's up front of an '80.

    . this was irecomended by nterco actually as they said the boggers will dig down the front where as the tsl's have more flotation to help keep front up where the weight is. and i already have them due to their recomendation.

    . in real life experience do you recommend boogers on all four corners?

    . i plan on moving up when 39.5 wear out!

    . my main question is the length of 2nd gen front spring hangers and should i use 2nd gen parts (since i have them)to make it where 2nd gen lifts will fit right up to a 1st gen , similar to the way 2nd gen'ers are putting 52's under their rigs?that way i can buy lift kits for 73-87 model blazers. to get the lift for 49" irok in the future. i wish i could put my '69 on my '80 model frame as it looks alot beefier than whats under my '69. and the '80 has 10" swamp runner under it already.

    . every1 says NO its to complicated, well i'm an ex mech engineer as well as a welder with about 8 certs.

    . isn't your 1st gen sitt'n on second gen frame? surely sum1 here has done such a swap.its just 2.5" difference .

    . i've shortened frames before to make crewcab car haulers into single cab ,i know about fish plates and the correct way to weld frames vertical never..all horizontal welds on fish plate only horizontal is where frame comes back together and it gets ground down flush so plate will fit over it.

    . i have a ton of questions but think this thread is long enuff hope it is easier to understand..sorry i will not run on sentences any more!

    . i indented this where it was simple to read but when i post it moves them..i'm going to try a period in front of my indents..i see hit enter between sentences..ok
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  8. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    4wd to 2wd

    .if you suggest just moving my 1st gen mounts or if you say use the 2nd gen 1's
    .i have a 79 model 1/2 ton 2wd truck that has the frame like a horse shoe but front crossmember is fine i'm going to bolt it into my '80 model and put the '79 rearend under the '80 also and make me a 2wd blazer.
    .2 blazers 1 lowered and the other lifted... both to the extremes..
    .i would rather you tell me its possible to put my '69 on my '80 model frame as it looks twice as thick as the 1st gen's frame.
    .if i go with 1st gen frame i think i'm goin to box it because there is a noticible diference in the different frame thicknesses it maybe an optical illusion. i'm going to mic them today! and see for sure!
     
  9. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Blazin'

    Thanks for taking the time to clarify your post. I know it can be a lot of work to type something that long and have it say what you want. When you get a chance, fill out your CK5 profile. :thumb:

    There are a couple of general points I'd like to make that might help you along:




    - 1st Gen & 2nd Gen frames are totally different. The body mounts are in completely different locations, so there's no chance of simply dropping your '69 onto an 80's frame without mods.

    - For the lift you want (8" right?) I don't know that the 52" springs are really your answer anyway. From what I've seen, the 52" swap is for flex and won't provide more than about 4" of lift anyway... Why not adapt the 2nd Gen lift springs up front? I don't know the length of a 2nd Gen front spring (eye-to-eye) but I'll be it's not 52".....probably more like 46" or something? If you were willing to cut the rivets on the stock hangers you could push each mount out a few inches to get the proper spacing and then re-attach them to the frame. It's some work, but not as bad as swapping an entire frame! :crazy:

    - As for the strength of the frames (early vs. late) I can tell you that the late model frames were known for cracking around the steering box (very common) and the early frames actually came from the factory with a re-inforcing plate behind that area for strength. I'm sure the factory did everything they could to reduce costs in the later models, so I wouldn't be surprised if the frames were a little thinner...As a general strategy, the tire size determines everything else. Pick the size you want (which it sounds like you have) and then plan for the amount of lift it will need to clear the wheelwells.
     
  10. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    yes that is what i was asking

    could the 1st gen have its front mounts moved so 2nd gen lift will bolt up? i was stating 8" because that was all i could see getting out of the first gen. mounts. after reading the tech article on the 52" i was tryin to ask was it feasible to do the same but not for the 52" but so it would be the same as 73-87 mounts.

    i want to swap everything off of my "80 model and put it in the "69 as it already has a 10" swamp runner lift and 1 ton axels. make the '69 so that it could be swapped with any 73-87 lift just as if it were a 2nd gen.

    because after my tires wear out i want to go with the 12" swamp runner lift
    put 3" body lift maybe lift shackles up front and shackle reversal on rear and try out the new 49"iroks. i'm talkin around 17" of total lift, what ever it takes to clear the 49" irocks without cutting.

    i was wondering would it be better to use the gen2 mounts off of my '80 for this or just move my gen1's.thanks and sorry for confusion

    and is the spring pad mount the same width between 1st and 2nd gen frame or will i have to widen or narrow the mounts any up front?
     
  11. 72_jimmy

    72_jimmy Registered Member

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    spring pad widths

    front axles will swap 1st to 2nd gen - bolt on

    2nd gen 1/2 and 3/4 ton rear axles have wider spring mounting than 1st gen.

    2nd gen 1-ton axles have the same spring spacing as 1st gen.

    lots of lift is required to clear the wheelwells on a 1st gen. My 72 Jimmy with 7" lift barely clears 35x14.5 swampers, and they would hit the fenders if you ever twisted it up.
     
  12. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    ok another question down

    but the main jest of the question is what do i have to do to get 2nd gen lift to fit my first gen

    the fronts only measure 44" and i have a second gen with 10" superlift swamp runner lift...thats why i want to reaarange the front mounts so everything is like a 2nd gen.

    then i can sell my lift get the 12" swamprunner 3" body 1 1/2" front shackles and do a rear shackle flip.

    that should get me about 16-17" of lift if this wont clear wheelwells i will go with a 4" bodylift. i want to run the new 49" iroks or at least 44" swampers.

    not a lot of flexin down here in the delta of the mississippi river just alot of gumbo..some of the nastiest mud you will ever see.

    thanks for the reply...did i understand you rite a 1 ton 1st gen has same front springs as the same as 1/2 ton second gen?

    will 16-18" of lift let me run the 49'ers?

    thanks for the reply...i think i was driving greg72 crazy.

    but from what he said and what i measured the rear is already the same as a 2nd gen....i want to move my front mounts now ..kinda like they do for the 52" springs but move it just enuff where any 2nd gen lift will fit my '69

    my "80 model guts are going into the '69 and it(the 80) has 3/4 ton 8 lug units under it(they bolted in) soon to be a 60-hd under the rear for a 1 ton rear(its been under it before but it only turned 1 tire) as soon as i get a locker for it and swap the brakes with f-350 to get some discs in the rear.

    so i want to know what the mounts measure from spring hanger to shackel hole on second gen frame..i measure rite at 47" on my '80..soo i can just move front mount out mount out 3" or does each mount have to move out 1 1/2"?any1 know the difference for absolute?

    from what i have measured the front on second gen is 47" and axel isn't centered on the spring pack it is 23 1/2 inch from center to shackle hole and 24 1/2 on the front half

    the 1st gen measures 44" and the back from center is 21 3/4" center to the front measures 22 1/4

    so if i make the front mount forward by 3" it will move tire forward about 1 3/4" in wheelwell which may be needed for the big tires? just as long as they don't get into the front...but i would rather cut the front than the rear as they make front fender front lower pocket as repair pieces.. has any1 done this? and have any pointers?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  13. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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  14. R72K5

    R72K5 Banned

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    although most ppl already know,. im gonna point it out anyways:

    you can put 73-up front springs on a 72 older, just use the 73 up hangers, drill holes, mount them, done

    easy

    if thats what you want is the longer packs on the 72


    good luck :D
     
  15. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    been waitin on that

    so i can put the 73 up spings on my '69 the same way?

    i can just move the front spring hanger and leave rear shackel mount where it is.just move the front hanger forward about 3 inches and presto it will fit 2nd gen lift kits?

    is it really that easy...the pics are of 2nd gen mounts on 1st gen frame? do you have to put longer shackles to get this to work?

    thanks i've been waiting on reply because i measure my 1st gen at 44" and my second gen at 47".

    thats exactly what i was asking because i didn't know if i had to move front hanger out 1 1/2" and the shackle mount back by 1 1/2". so the answer is i can move only the front hanger and move the front tire forwand by 1 5/8-1 3/4" away from cab that is what i seen happen by taking measurement.

    that blazer pic you sent me does it have 73 up springs up front becase front tire looks pretty centered in wheelwell..did you leave the axel where it mounts on the 2nd gen springs because if so and that blazer is done like that, i'm starting the conversion tommorow.

    i have an '80 model with 3/4 ton axel with a lift and i was trying to see if i could swap lift and all over to a newly aquired '69 blazer..thanks for the pics and the rplies.
     
  16. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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    That is the factory (1st gen) spring hanger moved forward the spacing of the rivit holes that attach them to the body mount bracket. That means they are about 1.75-1.80" forward from factory. I thought the pictures would be a better explination then words :crazy:

    I made the shackles 1" longer then stock out of some 2"x3/8" hot rolled steel. I got it from a scrap place for about $5 for a 10' stick. Cut to length and drill 2 holes. It doesn't get much easier then that. I don't need shackles that long but I am only using 4" springs that are almost flat. The more arch your spring has the longer the shackles need to be. I think 1" longer then stock would be a good starting place for 8" springs. The front end will bolt up. The only difference will be the brake caliper banjo bolts. Get some extended brake lines for the front made for the axle you are using.

    With this much lift how big of tires are you going to use? That front axle will have a very short life if you put 38" tires on it. :doah:
     
  17. blazin_blazer

    blazin_blazer 1/2 ton status

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    hmmmm?

    i figured they would have to go farther forward, as like i said i measured my 2nd gen at 47" and my 1st gen at 44" i thought i would have to move the hanger a full 3" forward to get it where i can swap out 1st gen to second gen spings.

    i'm shooting for 13-15" of lift i want to run at least 42" tsl's but really want the 49" irocks

    if i get it where the 2nd gen lift springs will fit under it i was going to get rid of my 10"swamprunner and get the 12" get some 1 1/2" front shackel lift and a shackle flip in the rear and add 3" body lift...this should put me at about 15-16" of lift

    i don't need it to flex as i am on flat ground in the mississippi delta and thats why i want such tall tires. GUMBO!

    if i just can get it swapped over where the stuff from my '80 will fit. i will be happy for awhile as my '80 that i plan on gutting everything out of is on 10" springs with 39.5 tsl up front and 39.5 boogers in the rear if i could just get this to fit i will be happy for awhile as i have 60% tread left...i have a dana 60 front but its open diff so its sitting in the corner of my shop rite beside the open rear that has 60-hd cast into it

    i've never seen 1 like it before the diff is not centered the axels have a long side and a short side...i had some1 tell me it was out of a f-350..and ford did that for what they call torque steer

    it has had the perches moved and shocks fitted and i bought it out from under a 84 chevy so i know it fits i just have never seen a rear end with different length axels it supposed to help the truck from raising one side when the othe gets traction ..they called it torque steer

    it looks kinda funny when in the truck as the drive shaft comes out of transfer and goes toward the back at an angle...the drivers side is about 6" shorter than the other ......ever heard of such?
     
  18. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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    Both the 1st gen and 2nd gen springs have centered center pins. The springs are about 3" longer so if you wanted to keep the axle in the same position front to back you would have to move the spring hanger forward 1.5". I didn't mind the extra ~0.25" that the axle was moved forward from stock. As for the shackle the angle on it sucks bigtime with normal lift springs (leans forward from the frame). Moving the spring eye back ~1.25" only helps things. In truth it could be moved more.

    With those huge tires you will most likely want to move the axle forward more then .25". Sounds like 52" springs would be better for you with the shackle in the factory location and the front moved forward A BUNCH (like 5") in order to move the axle forward more for more firewall clearance. In that case I would recomend just making a new front crossmember with new spring perches. You could even mount them a bit lower to get more lift with shorter springs. Look at the pics from "chevyhs" on www.scbd.org for pics of his front crossmember.

    Sell it and buy a 14-bolt or a Dana 70 (or a 2.5-ton rockwell). Moving the diff over only screws up driveshaft angles. It has no other benifit.
     

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