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? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... '88K5 Speaker Idea!

Discussion in 'Audio' started by Greg72, Sep 23, 2002.

  1. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    Now that I've had my dash pad off my "new" 88K5, I see that there are little 3.5"(?) speakers on the sides, and a hole in the middle for what was probably a 4x10" oval speaker.

    I had an idea that since I'll never get a "real" speaker in those corners, I could just use a component set and put the tweeters in those spots and build a mounting plate for the two 5.25" midranges and mount them in a slightly enlarged center dash hole.

    It's not an ideal setup, since I really shouldn't be bouncing speakers off glass, but since I already own the component speakers, it will be a cheap (pronounced FREE!) solution.

    The question is how to wire it? Should I somehow MONO the center signal, and run stereo to the tweeters? Is there a way to do that off a standard CD players built-in amp? My concern about running the mids in stereo is that the image will be ambiguous with the tweeters so far away from the mids, especially with frequencies near the crossover point.

    This is just a "conceptual idea" for now, but I thought I'd throw it out for some discussion. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  2. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    In all honesty, I think you'd be much better off to buy or build some new kick panels, and mount your mids down there. You could also mount the tweeters down there or up high on the windshield posts. That center speaker location would be okay for a external CB speaker, but that's about all I'd use it for. I'd mount some 6X9's in the back, and throw in a pair of 12" subs. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif That's just my thoughts, but then again, you could probley out do me with the stereo systems anyday
     
  3. zcarczar

    zcarczar 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I think it would be pretty hard to get those 5.25"s in there without a TON of cutting. They will fit in the front of the doors though. Thats where mine are. Just make sure you mount them as far foward as you can and they will clear the power window junk, i think you might have to notch the power window thingy down there but it doesnt hurt it structurlarly(sp?). I have the 3.5"s in the dash and they sound absolutely fine with the speakers in the door.
     
  4. K05Aggie

    K05Aggie 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I'll second that zcarczar. I don't think it would be easy/possible to fit two 5 1/4's in the center. If you do nothing else, put 6X9's in the back. It made a world of difference in my Blazer. I took one of the 4X10's and put it in the center of the dash, but it really didn't add much to the sound.
     
  5. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    Paul,

    Yeah, I'm trying to avoid going "off the deep end" with the stereo gear (at least THIS time!) on this truck. The '72 has a monster stereo, with LOTS of custom work and fabrication....it took lots of hours and lots of $$$. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

    I don't think getting the 5.25" speakers in the center will be THAT hard (it's all relative to what you've done previously, I supppose! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif ) I was thinking of creating a simple metal mounting plate, and then opening up the existing hole with a cutoff wheel or Dremel tool. I didn't see a whole lot of obstuctions below that opening that will affect my ability to go slightly wider with the opening.

    I guess the question has more to do with the "wiring" of the speakers, than the physical installation of the speakers (which I think will be pretty straightforward)

    I know in the "old days" of car audio (Early 90's) people were wiring tweeters into the center of dashboards and using special crossovers to create a MONO center signal in addition to the LEFT and RIGHT information on either side...the idea was to create a more solid center image. At the time, I never messed with a setup like that....so I guess this is my way of just playing around with it now...?

    The idea of adding rear subs is tempting, but I don't think I'll invest the time or money to go that far. Maybe a set of decent coaxials for the rear for some "fill".....but I'm a firm believer that the BEST speakers belong in the FRONT of the vehicle, and any sound from the rear should be minimal and should only add "ambience" to what's happening up front. Throwing a set of 6x9's in the back and slapping the fader to "rear" is not what I am willing to do! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif


    So anyway....that's kind of the reasons behind the question. I guess I also don't want to deal with cutting up the doors, and snaking wires....since there do not appear to be any factory speakers in the doors?
     
  6. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    How hard would it be to build a set of kick panel build outs for your sepreats ??? I agree that the best speakers should be up front. I've had a few systems, but never in a Blazer befor, so this is kinda new ground for me. Did have some Q-lodgic Q-forms kick panels in a 78 C-30. Sounded really good for only having Hollywoods 5 1/2" mids and 1" tweets. http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/QLCQLK1006 Not too expencive. I want to get some for my Blazer when I do a system
     
  7. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I don't know if you have stumbled opon this site yet...
    But they have some interesting stuff.
    http://www.lalena.com/audio/
     
  8. AzzKicker

    AzzKicker 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I was looking at my truck today and I was wondering just how the hell you people do it with Q-panels. The way it looks they wouldnt last a day. Their toooooo toooo close to where your feet can kick them, etc etc. Not to mention after a day of mudding I get in the truck with mud on my boots that just falls everyone on the floor. And dont even get me started on the beach /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

    I would reccoment just puting 5 1/4's in the doors and the tweeters on the A pillar.
     
  9. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    No offense to anyone here who likes them.....but I'm NOT a believer in those kickpanel Q-Forms or Q-Panels....

    My thinking is that if a speaker is designed by the manufacturer to work in the airspace of a typical car door, then stuffing it into a TINY kickpanel area, is going to overdamp that poor speaker and never allow it to move. The cushion of air behind it is just too small.

    When I built floor mounted pods, I used them ONLY for my tweeters...that's a whole different story. My mids were installed in the lower doors where they had plenty of "breathing room".

    Beyond my objections to the "theory" of Q-Panels, I also agree that they are a bit of a pain because the block the e-brake, vents, and really DO get "KICKED" there.....

    Simplicity and low cost, are the objectives on this project. "Stealth" is also a requirement for every system I install. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  10. XHitman396

    XHitman396 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    ive had my q forms for about 2 months and they sound great, yes they do get in the way of the ebrake a little but i dun rekn itll kill anyone, the sound is good, and you may find yourself a little more cautious with your feet, like me, if you have over 300 dollars worth of qform and speaker down there... they do get dirty and stuff, but i have have inches of gunk on my boots and not gotten it into the speaker, but sand is another story which i have not experienced, i regret nothing except the price is a little extreme, my 2 cents...
     
  11. BozoWise

    BozoWise 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    Just got to the post and there are so many cans of worms opened in here. Ie location, placement, wiring, damping factory, resonant freq, reflec freq.

    Just some pointers: You want to try and get your midrange and tweeter as close to each other as possible to "blend" freq. For proper imaging you should never mount the mid low and the tweeter high ie lower door and high A pillar. I see this done often but it is a NO GO for tru SQ. If you are only going to use the headunit outputs for wiring then I wouldn't suggest summing the outputs to create a mono center channel with the 5 1/4. I AM IMPRESSED with the reference and brief knowledge of the exsistence of such wiring. With an external amplifier this is a different possiblilty.

    As far as building a true SQ (sound quality) vehicle this would be one of my last choices for vehicle selection. Main reason is because it is a big steel box and steel resonates. Yet the steel factor ranks supreme in me choosing this for an offroad vehicle. To have a balanced sound platform you need the speakers on the left and right to be equ-distant from the center of your skull. ie the left midrange is 35 inches from you COSkull and your right midrange is 35 inches from your COSkull. This is nearly impossible without some nasty mods to the vehicle and deffinetly not worth the time and effort. To combat the difference in distance between the two speakers you increase the distance. That is why moving the speakers to the kickpanels makes them sound better. You have increseaed the distance from each speaker compared to the COSkull. I can get into detailed explaination of this if someone likes but for now I'll leave it alone. I think people get turned off by technical mumbo jumbo.

    As far as airspace in relation to a midrange speaker it is much less of a factor compared to larger subs and such. The midrange is designed more as a free airspace driver and the door is not a sealed enclosure. Water and air pass freely from the top and bottom of your doors. That is why so much "trach" collects at the bottom of a doors interior. You would be amazed at what all I pull out of doors each day at work when replacing speakers.

    So without this getting too technical I would suggest doing what YOU want and prefer. Son't worry about reflection and reverse refraction of waves off glass and the such; don't loose sleep over the tweeters being out of phase. If you want the mids in the center then go for it and send me some pics after the install. I do agree that with a bit of cutting you can get them in there and I think you are on the right track of cutting a large oval shape out and mounting the speakers to a backing panel that mounts on the dash. The only thing I suggest is mounting the speaker from the bottom of the new panel and that will sink them in the dash more to clear the dash pad. I have done that in the past.

    As far as the wiring keep each as 5 1/4 with its matched tweeter and don't worry about the imaging. I hope that you will be satisfied with the output as I almost ALWAYS suggest even a mild amplifier on a set of component speakers.

    As always I do not mean for any of this to PUT SOMEONES post down or degrade your opinions I am just speaking from experience and what I know. That is why you don't see me posting on motor or trans issues because I know very little about those details. But car audio is my job and daily life.
     
  12. Cmoe

    Cmoe 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I love the Tech. aspect of the info you were giving. I enjoy to read Manuals. Sometimes my family tells me to read this fictional book and it puts me to sleep. Keep the info coming...... Is that why so many times you see center channel? What about building a center console that would hold a set of speakers and create a smaller area for each front seat.. does this make sense... That way each seat wouldn't loose sound that hits legs and such. I don't remember it being said but you have to be able to see the speaker location when everything and anything is in the vehical that sound is assorbed and lost when sonething obstructing the view it is also obstructing the sound imaging.

    Thanks BozoWise for your help in the audio section.....
     
  13. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    Brian,

    That's a can of worms all right.....! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    I fully understand what you're saying about the pathlength differences, and the considerations for ULTIMATE sound. In fact, when I did the stereo in my '72K5, I acutally built custom metal tweeter pods INSIDE the floor, so that I could get the tweeters equidistant from the listening positions! LOTS of work, but it images really well....I also put little "headlight adjusters" on those tweeters so that I could listen and adjust them (toe-in/toe-out) until I was satisfied with the sound.... /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

    I guess the simplest way I can put my question on the '88K5, is that I don't want to run extra wires into the doors, and I don't feel like making a HUGE project out of it. When I look at the available "stock" locations....there are some 3.5" spots on the dash....and some 4x10" holes in the very back of the truck. That's it....not exactly a "recipe" for good sound! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

    When I was messing with the idea of putting mids in the center of the dash, it was really just to get some lower frequency stuff up front (more than what a 3.5" could ever do) and not spend a ton of hours getting it done.

    Who know's? I may just start messing with it, and see how it sounds. The worst that will happen is that it will sound "weird" and I'll have to go back to a conventional 3.5" speaker in each corner.......

    I'm still going to need a self-powered CD headunit, so if you have a recommendation (Clarion sounds like "the brand" these days!) please let me know. If you sell a faceplate kit to adapt it into the '88K5 dash (weird shape 2-poster opening) that would save me some work too....!


    /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
     
  14. AzzKicker

    AzzKicker 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    long project nonsense /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Took me like 1hr to do both doors /forums/images/icons/smile.gif All I did was measure the speaker whole i needed, Drew the circle and got some Sheetmetal sissors and cut the hole, that took like 5 min. then I just marked the whole for the speakers and drilled them out, then drilled a whole on side of door, and on door frame for speaker wire to pass. and that was it. Its actually a very very simple project, And then you can just mount the 4x10's in the back like what I plan to do. So i have 3-way 6.5's in the doors and the 4x10's going in the back with a sub I plan to mount under seat and I should get good results.
     
  15. BozoWise

    BozoWise 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    The problem with a center console is that you split the front into two seperate staged listening areas. You'll have 2 speakers imaged the the left and 2 imaged to the right. Then you get into alot of cancelation issues.

    Greg--- look into the Clarion website and let me know which one you want prices on ;-) It is all personal preference on the headunit.
     
  16. Rebel-Rider

    Rebel-Rider 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    GREG72 as far as a headunit goes i have a friend who has a shop in denver and he sells clarion but he has told me that the durability of clarion vs most other products isnt very good he said that there quality has drastically dropped off in the past 2 years i personally own a kenwood but if you want the best head unit out there go with ECLIPSE by fujitsu ten they are the best of the best but youll pay a pretty penny also
     
  17. BozoWise

    BozoWise 1/2 ton status

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    I'd have to disagree as I get much less returns on the Clarion compared to the Kenwood; I would put any of our Clarion units up against a kenwood. I also do some of the Eclipse and the price has been going down in the last few years almost to the point that the average car audio buyer can afford the Eclipse, but as price goes down so does their quality.
     
  18. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Re: ? for BozoWise and the other Installers.... \'88K5 Speaker Idea!

    A friend of mine bought a Clarion about 2 years ago becouse his Kenwood kept crapping out. He's been very happy with it, and I think it has a better sound then his Kenwood did (Same amps and speakers). I personally have a JVC KD-LX50 and am completely satified with it.
     

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