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For Tim, and others to think about

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Desert Rat, May 9, 2004.

  1. Desert Rat

    Desert Rat Fetch the comfy chair

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    Since the other post was locked, I will respond to Tim here. Let me point out a couple of problems with your theory on PC and cops. You argue that officers should not have the ability to conduct PC searches in the field absent a search warrant. Let me give you a little background on what it takes to get the point where an officer has you stopped in the middle of the night.

    A person submits an application to their agency of choice. An exhaustive background check is conducted along with an extensive testing process that includes psychological testing, lie detectors, interviews, oral boards, physical agility, etc. Of the many who apply, a small percentage qualifies and is chosen. Many of the agencies require a minimum of two years of college. Many applicants have a four-year degree, or even a Masters.

    Those hirees then attend a police academy that runs anywhere from 6-8 months. In that academy, they receive intensive courses in search and seizure, drug recognition, evidence collection, civil liability and civil rights, interview techniques, case law, etc. They are tested on a regular basis. Fail once, you retest. Fail again you are fired. After a percentage of them are weeded out, and the rest graduate, they go on to their agencies field training program.

    This field training program runs anywhere from 5-8 months. Regular evaluations of their performance are done, sometimes daily for some agencies. They now take that academy training and have to apply it in the real world. They wear the uniform, badge, gun, and are a full time sworn officer. They make arrests, go to court, and write reports. But, they are constantly evaluated for retention, or termination. They are on probation for 12-18 months. Another percentage is weeded out and eventually these officers are released from the training program. They are generally still on probation, and under scrutiny.

    Now these officers continue to make arrests, write tickets, and go to court. In court during their career, they go through a process called voir dire. It is a court recognized process where they can be sworn in as recognized experts in a skill. Officers are routinely sworn in as experts in drug recognition, evidence collection, organized crime or gang recognition, and a whole variety of skills that officers use in their jobs.

    Many officers go on to teach at police academies, citizen police academies, colleges, or write books on these subjects. Some are nationally recognized for their expertise. Most officers continue their training throughout their careers. They go to yearly law updates, keep current on criminal trends, and take regular tests for career advancement. Some officers even get a law degree and practice law on the side.

    How is it then that the courts, and the vast majority of society, are willing to recognize an officers expertise in court for almost every possible area of criminal investigations, but they are supposed to mistrust an officers understanding of search and seizure? How is it that the courts and society can tell an officer that they can be a drug recognition expert in the field and make arrests based upon that expertise, but they cannot search unless they wake up a judge? How is that an officer can be given a gun, trained thoroughly in the technical use of the gun, the liability of using deadly force, and then sent on the streets to make life and death decisions, but not trusted to know what PC to search your car?

    The erroneous points you made in your other post are so numerous that I cannot even begin to address them individually unless you really want me to, and the post is not locked. I recommend that you do go and study law. When you do, you may keep your libertarian viewpoints, but you will find that your law arguments are way off base. Just a bit of personal advice too. I know I am banging my head against the wall arguing with you. In my twenties, I knew everything too. But, there are more than a few people on this board that have a slight bit more knowledge than you in some areas. There are rookie cops, veteran cops, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and others here who have a tad bit more knowledge and experience than you have gained in your short lifetime. I recommend you keep an open mind because you come across as already knowing everything there is to know about Chevy's, the law, and the police. I am twice your age, and I learn something new every day. I have been recognized as an expert in a variety of fields in my life, but I still maintain a sharp learning curve every chance I get. You also need to realize that your threats to sue officers are a tired old drum that has been beaten to the point of being ignored. How many times to you think an officer hears that a day? How many times do you think a person prevails in court against an officer criminally and civilly? You might want to look into corporate, personal injury, or real estate law instead. Some criminal defense attorneys make a decent living, some do not. All sell their souls for the buck. But, those that try and make a living suing cops are usually wearing hand me down suits and doing mostly pro bono work. Good luck.
     
  2. tecton

    tecton 1/2 ton status

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    i think the point of a post being closed is to close the matter...not move to a new post

    **
    i read it and agree btw /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  3. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    And some people think we're given a gun, keys to a car and sent on our merry way to harass the public. It's amazing how many people, no matter their backgrounds, groundskeeper, garbage man, smack dealer or gang banging mommy with 10 kids on welfare actually think they know our job better than we do. I don't go around telling brain surgeons and nuclear physicists how to do there job.

    And to the third grade reading rejects who felt the need to chime in with their own wasted thoughts, I truly feel sorry for you. I can understand how I may have come across to you as a jerkwad, but that's just more examples of the human psyche unable to handle strong willed folks and their confidence. It may be boasting, but I can guarandamntee ya that I'm the cop you want pulling you over. I'm the cop that will be calling you sir and maam; I'm the cop that is going to be low-keyed, making sure everything is okay with kindness and I'm the cop, like previously stated, if stopped by me, you have over a 90% chance of driving off with a warning.

    If that's bragging or arrogance, then so be it because those of you that have lived the sheltered lives don't realize that we may have to go from Joe Bob nice guy one second to Kicking A** and taking names Billy Bada** the next. I'm not here to harass the public. I treat the public the way I expect to be treated. I keep in mine that not only the way I treat someone reflects not only on me, but my sheriff and ultimately the voters who elected him. I want my contacts to go home thinking, "that was the nicest cop I ever met. He could have easily written me a ticket since I was going 20 mph over the speed limit, but he just told me to slow it down. If he had given me a ticket, I would have been pissed, but he made me feel good." Off track a little, but maybe it'll give the detractors a clue.

    Final say on PC.......If ya think a search warrant should be required before searching a car, that's all fine and dandy but let me ask you this..........What do I do when I pull over Crankster Bob 40 miles from the nearest judge at 2am? Even though Bob may be the scum of the Earth, there is absolutely no reason to keep him stopped on the side of the road for an hour or two before I get my warrant.
     
  4. mofugly13

    mofugly13 1 ton bucket of rust Premium Member

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    I don't think Tim was arguing that PC should be abandoned in favor of a search warrant for EVERY search. I think he was questioning what exactly constitutes PC. Driving a deserted road at night is not PC. Having long hair, tattoos and a scruffy appearance is not PC. Leaving the scene of a party is not PC. Now, a joint smoldering in the ashtray, is PC. A knife covered with blood on the floor is PC. Here in America, as you know, the doctrine is innocent until proven guilty. An officer cannot assume you are guilty of "something", and demand to search your vehicle. That is presuming the citizen is guilty of something, and a search that turns up nothing determines the citizen "innocent." Having no legit probable cause, but demanding a search anyway sounds like it is up to the citizen to prove his innocence. Guity until proven innocent? It only works that way in the Military.


    [ QUOTE ]
    And to the third grade reading rejects who felt the need to chime in with their own wasted thoughts, I truly feel sorry for you

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Who exactly might you be referring to, Bubba?? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    Just another arrogant statement, not strong willed and confident, but pigheaded and arrogant.
     
  5. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    Being a white male with long hair I have been the victom of the "PC" search more then once. Granted, I did something to get pulled over to begin with, like not comeing to a complete stop at a stop sign, doesn't matter that there isn't any other traffic, I failed to come to a complete stop, my bad. But just becouse I have long hair isn't "PC" to search my vehicle in my opinion. It's ironic with all the times my vehicles have been searched, nothing has ever been found. Personally, I think the officer(s) should be required to list what thier "PC" is befor searching a vehicle, and the person pulled over should be given a written copy and it must be justifiable. But that's just my opinion, I'm not a cop and can't begin to guess what officers have to go through each and every day. /forums/images/graemlins/deal.gif
     
  6. mudhog

    mudhog THEGAME Staff Member Super Moderator

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    i am also a white male with VERY long hair and i have been pulled over many times in my youth and have NEVER had my vehicle searched
     
  7. newyorkin

    newyorkin 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    i am also a white male with VERY long hair and i have been pulled over many times in my youth and have NEVER had my vehicle searched

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Same here. I've been pulled over minimum 100 times since I got my license. Politeness, cooperation, and diplomacy can go a long way. Put yourself in the officers position when you're being pulled over, and then treat them the way you'd want to be treated. Even if they're absolute hardass-*****s, you have more to gain by cooperating than not. You can assert your rights without being simply rebellious.
     
  8. bigyellowjimmy

    bigyellowjimmy 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Driving a deserted road at night is not PC. Having long hair, tattoos and a scruffy appearance is not PC. Leaving the scene of a party is not PC.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Many times you have no idea why you are being pulled over. There may have been a crime committed in the area and they are pulling over every vehicle that matches the description. I was pulled over on I-70 doing 95 MPH once in a 65 MPH zone, the Deputy looked inside my truck, looked in the back, told me to slow down and told me Merry Christmas. He was obviously looking for something or someone that I didnt have. And I dont even have long hair or tattoos! *gasp* I guess we all get "harassed" about the same.
     
  9. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    i am also a white male with VERY long hair and i have been pulled over many times in my youth and have NEVER had my vehicle searched

    [/ QUOTE ] All I was saying is I have had my vehicle searched becouse I had long hair. I wasn't rude to the officers. I think alot of it has too do with where you live and stereotyping. In the midwest, if a man has long hair, they are stereotyped as dopers, even if they've never done dope. So I belive the way I looked was the reson my vehicle was searched. But ofcorse, that has been meny years ago. Do you think it may have been becouse I was young at the time ???
     
  10. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    This is a subject that can be debated forever with thousands of different opinions.Some peoples definition of they way say a Traffic stop was conducted could be interpeted as Harrassment While others would say the Cop was just doing their job.I know around here some of the small towns have what we call Weekend Warriors that work for almost nothing. I got pulled over by one once for going 2 over the speed limit! Come on now, That is a little Crazy now!I was pissed at first than thought about it and concluded that maybe the guy was new and was still learning.I have several Friends that are cops and hear all kinds of storys about Crazy Stuff that goes on.I never could understand why people say they hate Cops, They are there to serve and protect the public. That is one of the toughest jobs there is.The bottom line is that the cops do not make the laws, They are paid to Enforce them and put their life on the line sometimes to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  11. eightyone

    eightyone 1/2 ton status

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    ill admit, im 19 and have been driving since i had my junuirs license at 16, i now have a revoked license, i have to wait till im 21 to get it back, i have been pulled over a million times, and have been arrested about half those times. i say the cop only had reason to pull me over about 3 times out of those million, but im the person all the cops know, and just neeed that "one little thing" to lock me up, on one ocasion, i had a cop smash my tailight as he walked up to my truck, and said he pulled me over cuz of a broken tail light, and ended up having mommy and daddy pick me up fromt he precinct 4 hours later, but ive never been in an accident, and i dont drink or do drugs, i can outdrive any cop in my jetta, but im still not allowed to drive legally... and theres idiots that dont know the difference between a green light and a red light with insurance thats 4 grand a year cheaper than mine... /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif
     
  12. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    i can outdrive any cop in my jetta

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif /forums/images/graemlins/histerical.gif

    It's attitudes like those that get innocent people killed.
     
  13. eightyone

    eightyone 1/2 ton status

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    i guess your right, i do have a pretty bad attitude, but the cops dont help me when i get shot at, and i dont help them at the end of the month when they need to meet there quota...maybee someday i will grow up and learn, but the way i live, im probally not gunna make it that long... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
     
  14. unclematty

    unclematty 1/2 ton status

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    are we still all worked up bout this??!! I don't like the way the cops treat me either but you don't hear me cryin and whinin bout it. if they didn't stereotype could you imagine the scum that would be out on the streets? so wheres the middle ground I don't know but the one thing I do know is I'm tired of hearing about this /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif someone incharge please kill this thread and ban any such babble in the future
     
  15. Seventy4Blazer

    Seventy4Blazer 3/4 ton status

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    thats a lot of typing.

    mine will be simple, to the point and blunt

    keep in mind i have never been arrested, but have had MANY run ins with police, ahve a fair share of tickets to include a DUI.

    i dont get mad when i get pulled over unless i KNOW i wasnt doing anything illegal. then i still dont get mad at the police officer. it isnt his fault he is doing the jobe he is paid to do.

    i think a police officer should be REQUIRED to search every vehicle he pulls over. given time anyway. i got pulled over about 2 weeks ago to find out that my liscence is still illegal in cali. due to my DUI 4 years ago. i got pulled over for illegal left turn and 7MPH over the speed limit. i HAD been drinking but knew i was more than fine to drive and knew i was under the legal limit. i had concieled weapons in the car. 2 knives, one a k-bar(7 inch blade 5 inch handle for those of you who dont know) and another knife with 4 inch blade. both illegal to carry.

    i told the police office about them up front. he questioned me about them and left it at that. he asked if i had been drinking. i told him yes. he did a few field sobriety tests then had me blow. blew a .051 BAC. legal in the state.

    he then informed me that my Drivers lic. was still suspended from 4 years ago.

    in the end we talked for a bit and i was let off free of any charges. i have yet to recive any in the mail so i doubt i will get any. WHY DID HE LET ME GO? because i had nothing to hide from him. i was honest with him and held nothing back from him. i was polite and cooperative for the most part(i refused to sit on the curb. i belive it is unsafe to sit on a blind corner in front of a police car. ir a wreck happens due to a drunk seeing the lights and following them i get smashed between a cop car and my truck.)

    YES, i still drive. i get my liscence back the middle of next month. i only drive to and from work.

    police officers need to have as many rights as possible.

    PC to search is the fact that they pulled you over.

    if you dont like it then follow ALL the laws on driving. you wont getpulled over then.

    or, just dont drive. i commit a fellony every day, 20MPH over. im sure a lot of you guys do as well.
    Grant
     
  16. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    i commit a fellony every day, 20MPH over.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That be no felony.............Here's a little funny tidbit. I start looking at people at 10 over. Maybe a glance, once in a great while I'll pull them over. In fact my first arrest the guy was only 12 over. At 15 over, I can't make up my mind if I really want to stop people. It all really depends on a bunch of factors; if they slow down when they see me and yes, what they look like and what they are driving. At 20 over is a traffic stop waiting to happen, but unless the person changes my mind, they are driving away with a warning. At 30 over a ticket is getting wrote. Of course my standards are subject to change at a moment's notice. There's been only one guy that I've stopped that I should have wrote cause he gave me attitude, but I'm into throwing people curve balls /forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif
     
  17. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    How many insist that they were not Speeding
     
  18. Bubba Ray Boudreaux

    Bubba Ray Boudreaux 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    How many insist that they were not Speeding

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've had a couple. Here's how I operate. Once I get a reading and it's in my 'zone,' I lock the speed. Now sometimes it may take a second to get locked, so if they have a radar detector, they are on the brakes and I may lock at a few miles under what I first got. Depending on the speed depends on if I stop. I had one lady last week tell me she wasn't, of course she was, but I sent her on her way asking her to slow down. Even though we are not required to show the radar to a person, I lock the speed and go off that so if the person does want to see it, I'll oblige them.

    Sometimes I run above the speed limit, maybe even ten over. I definately won't pull someone over if they are speeding but slower than me cause I usually keep it around the limit or up to five over. I may have a lot of ground to cover, but speed makes people miss stuff. I've got a ten hour shift, with an overtime window of 11 hours and a 1 hour meal period. Some guys like to rush through the area, but I take my time. This stuff is almost going to church for me. I'm out in some of the most beautiful country around doing what I've always wanted to do and I'm at peace with myself. It's almost better than sex cause it lasts a longer /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  19. mudjunkie 82

    mudjunkie 82 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    That is Great that you enjoy your Job. I know so many people that totally hate their jobs. Be Safe out there on the road!!!!!!
     
  20. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Final say on PC.......If ya think a search warrant should be required before searching a car, that's all fine and dandy but let me ask you this..........What do I do when I pull over Crankster Bob 40 miles from the nearest judge at 2am? Even though Bob may be the scum of the Earth, there is absolutely no reason to keep him stopped on the side of the road for an hour or two before I get my warrant.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If he's truely the scum of the Earth, I'd say that there is not only good reason to keep him stopped for as long as necessary, I'd say it is your duty to the rest of us as law abiding citizens.

    [ QUOTE ]
    I don't think Tim was arguing that PC should be abandoned in favor of a search warrant for EVERY search. I think he was questioning what exactly constitutes PC. Driving a deserted road at night is not PC. Having long hair, tattoos and a scruffy appearance is not PC. Leaving the scene of a party is not PC. Now, a joint smoldering in the ashtray, is PC. A knife covered with blood on the floor is PC. Here in America, as you know, the doctrine is innocent until proven guilty. An officer cannot assume you are guilty of "something", and demand to search your vehicle. That is presuming the citizen is guilty of something, and a search that turns up nothing determines the citizen "innocent." Having no legit probable cause, but demanding a search anyway sounds like it is up to the citizen to prove his innocence. Guity until proven innocent? It only works that way in the Military.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Absolutely. At least one person finally sees my point, recognizes me as a halfway intelligent person, and doesn't dimiss my opinion as worthless crap.

    In very extreme circumstances, I can see PC being used in an emergency situation to gather the evidence necessary to get a crutial arrest.

    However, I feel that getting a search warrant not only increases the chance of conviction, but it will provent the potential abuse of such power.

    Do I think it should be eliminated completely? Maybe, but that's not practical. Do I believe that the power to conduct such searches should be SERIOUSLY limited, and do I believe that is practical? ABSOLUTELY, and I certainly wish it was that way.

    As to me studying law, at this point I consider it a serious possibility.

    And if you think I'm a know it all, that is unfortuante. I'm really not that way unless I feel that someone really just doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm 20 now, I learn something new every day (make a point to do so) and I have an open mind and I ask questions about EVERYTHING. That is how I've learned everything I know now, and I hope to learn something new every day until the day I die. I don't think I'm super-intelligent or anything, just more curious than probably anybody you'll ever meet.

    If any of y'all ever met me, you'd probably be annoyed with me asking you questions about EVERYTHING, especially your truck if that came into play.

    Bubba seems like a reasonable cop in most cases of the performance of his duties, and MANY cops are that way. Unfortunately it's the bad apples that spoil it for all of them, and because of those bad apples I believe that the rights of an individual must never be comprimised. It makes more work for those that have been doing it all along--but it would greatly reduce the abuse of police power.

    This has been a great discussion, I hope nobody got the idea that I'm only trying to be argumentative. Although that may be true in some cases on this board, I have simply wanted to give my viewpoint on this subject. It is nothing personal directed at any individual, whether they agree with me or not.
     

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