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Gear pattern interpretations please... (better pics this time)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Shaggy, Oct 14, 2002.

  1. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Hey guys, I did some more tweaking with the setup on my D60, wanted to check and see what you think about the pattern I cam up with. I think it looks pretty good, the only thing that is concerning me is the fact that I can't get the contact any closer to the flank (bas) of the gear. It is pretty close to the face (top edge) of the gear now, and no matter what I do I cant get it to go any deeper on the teeth. Other than that I think the pattern looks pretty good. Only took about 10 times to get it there /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Here's some pics -

    Coast side -

    [​IMG]

    Drive side -

    [​IMG]

    Here is the part I'm concerned about, I wish I could get the pattern deeper into the flank -

    [​IMG]
    </font color>
     
  2. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Wouldn't a shim on the ring gear side get the pinion gears deeper??

    Rene
     
  3. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I have nothing to add from a technical standpoint, but it's really cool that you are setting up your own gears! It's something that scares me too much to try myself...even though when I watched the guys that did mine....it looked pretty straightforward.

    I guess it's one of those things where you have to know what you're looking at on that marking paste stuff, and I don't...!

    10 tries huh? If nothing else, you deserve an award for persistence!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  4. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> A shim on the ring gear side would get it marginally deeper, but the backlash is already at .008", and the minimum recommended backlash is .006". Even if I went all the way to .003", it would only go .005" deeper. Which actually makes a light go off in my head - with 0 backlash and the gears still not going any deeper, it would seem that they can't physically go any deeper, so they must be running in about the right place... Regardless, I'm hoping to be able to send the pics to Drivetrain Direct to have one of their techs look at it and give me a yea or nay on it, I just thought that maybe someone in here has done their own gears and could give me an opinion. Thanks for the input, Rene!

    Greg, it's really not that difficult, although some of the adjustments don't make any sense until you think about them. For example, if you decrease the shim thickness for the pinion depth, normal logic says that you would increase the shim pack for the pinion preload, but the opposite is true, you decrease them both to maintain the same preload. Makes sense when you see how it goes together, but it's a head scratcher the first time around. /forums/images/graemlins/pimp1.gif It's also frustrating to do the same exact thing 10 times in one day, and still not hacve the thing perfect by the end. Also, all the pictures that I have for pattern interpretation, none of them really look much like the pattern that I have. Makes it hard to say "Yup, that's definately right, no doubt about it." Oh well, I've learned alot, hopefully the setup on the 14 bolt will go a bit faster. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif</font color>
     
  5. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Well if you added a shim to the ring gear side and shimmed the pinion out a bit you'd get deeper and more centered on the ring gear while maintaining your backlash...wouldn't you?

    Looking at the pic's the pattern seems to be biased toward the carrier itself...looks like the pinion is too deep.

    Anyone else???

    Rene
     
  6. gtkustoms

    gtkustoms 1/2 ton status

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    are you putting any pressure on the gears when you are turning them to get some resistance?
     
  7. gtkustoms

    gtkustoms 1/2 ton status

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    to me it looks like the pinion is not deep enough.
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> You'd think it would work like that, but when we tried that it made the pattern real narrow. We went .007 shallower on the pinion and adjusted the backlash to .008, and the pattern looked awful the pinion was only contacting the ring on the flank side of the pattern. Like I said, logic doesn't seem to apply to setting gears. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Thanks for the ideas though! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Not deep enough... Well, that could be too, but where it's at now is about .015 deeper and .020 shallower than we've tried, and of both extremes where it's at now seems to be the best compromise. I dunno, I may be WAY off or something, but this is the first time I've done this, so it could well be that I actually am way off.</font color>
     
  9. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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  10. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    [​IMG]

    Too shallow

    [​IMG]

    Too deep

    [​IMG]

    Nomenclature...

    [​IMG]

    Rene
     
  11. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Dang it, if it really is too deep then I don't know WTF to do next. When I make it any shallower the pattern starts really looking like $h!t.

    I have 6 different sets of instructions and they all say slightly different things about where the pattern should be. Randy's says only worry about the face/flank location, that the toe/heel orientation is not that important, but the others say that the pattern has to be right in the middle.

    What is more important, the shape of the impression made in the pattern goo, or the location? I never got it right in the middle, the pattern on the coast side is always down towards the toe of the gear. The first tooth that you see has an impression that looks almost crescent shaped, but all of the others had a pretty even impression in it. I can see why people don't set their own gears... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif </font color>
     
  12. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Maybe try going more shallow and then shim the ring gear side some more?

    Rene
     
  13. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    From the above link.
    **Check the pattern for proper pinion depth only after setting the backlash. Brush three or four of the ring gear teeth with a moderate coat of gear marking compound in two different places on the ring gear. Rotate the ring gear past the pinion gear three or four times and then back so the pattern can be seen.

    Pinion depth is indicated by the position of the pattern between the face and flank of the ring gear teeth. Backlash must be kept within specifications, and will therefore only slightly affect the pattern between the heel and toe of the ring gear teeth. Housing alignment and pinion bearing bore alignment can also affect the pattern from heel to toe and can not be corrected without machine work. In some cases an ideal heel to toe pattern can not be achieved. If the backlash is within specifications, you may disregard the heel to toe pattern. A contact pattern that is centered from face to flank always indicates correct pinion depth even if a pattern that is centered from heel to toe can not be obtained.**
     
  14. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Powermad - yep, I certainly recognize that, I must have read it 100 times in the past couple of weeks /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. So you said that the pinion looks too deep, is that because the pattern does not look centered from face to flank, or is something else tipping you off? I've more or less given up trying to center it from toe to heel, I thik that the housing is off a bit, but hopefuly not enough to weaken the gearset. the meat of the pattern is on the gear, so hopefully it will be OK.

    Rusty - I have those drawings, but so far the thing has yet to throw a pattern that looks anything much like any of those pics /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif.</font color>
     
  15. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Shaggy-
    My friend is going to help me and teach me how to set up my gears.. he does this all the time at his work.
    I printed out this thread and i'll bring it to my nightclass tonight and ask him for his input.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    hopefully the setup on the 14 bolt will go a bit faster.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    He told me the Dana axles are hard becasue everytime you need to change shims you have to take the bearings back out of the carrier to change shims, and then press the bearings back in? The 14bolt the shims are on the outside so it's much easier. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif er something like that.
     
  16. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Thanks Ryan, hopefully he can shed some more light on this. the Dana ones are apparantly harder to set up, although since I'm using then ARB only the passenger side of the carrier has the shims between the bearing and the case. I also made a setup bearing by reaming the inner race to it can be ressed onto the carrier by hand, once the setting is finalized then we will press the other bearing into place. The pinion depth is a PITA to change, since to change it the pinion has to be removed, the bearing race needs to be driven out, the shims changed, then the whole thing has to go back together. Towards then end we could get the whole thing apart and back together again in about 10-15 minutes, but it's still a big PITA. </font color>
     
  17. gtkustoms

    gtkustoms 1/2 ton status

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    when you look at your pattern you can see that the gears are marking closer to the face and not to the flank

    this indicates that your pinion depth is too shallow
     
  18. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    14bolt the shims are on the outside so it's much easier. er something like that.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Which ones are you talking about?

    The 14FF only uses shims between the pinion support housing and the differential housing itself. Its the 6-bolt round shim thingie. These are the only shims on the 14FF and will only adjust the depth of the pinion.

    There are no shims on the inside part, where the carrier bearings are because there are adjusting rings to get the backlash. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  19. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    <font color="green"> Yep, adjusting rings on the 14 bolt = /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. Easy shmeezy. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif </font color>
     
  20. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    The hardest job on rebuilding the 14FF is setting the pinion depth. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     

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