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How much zero rate is too much.

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Pure Insanity, Aug 11, 2002.

  1. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Im not talking crazy amounts here. Im getting ready to tear PI apart again here soon and want to squeeze another 2-3 inches out of it. I like the ride and flex I have now, and dont want to lose that. Id just like a bit more clearance for the 14 wide wheels and next set of tires when the time comes. (39 Boggers.) I am also going from the stock shackle w/ a bolt to bolt of 4in. to 5-6in. (1/2 to 1in. lift from the shackles)

    So now to the question, does anyone think a 1 1/2in- 2in zero rate is too much. I can have these made up at the local machine shop. I dont see where more than the "standard" is that big of a deal.

    This is just a thought that has been rattling around in my head. I am not sure I am going to do it yet. I want to take a look at my caster angle and see how much the shackles will make a difference and maybe have a taper machined into the zero rates.
     
  2. BILLY RAY

    BILLY RAY 1/2 ton status

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    Just a shot for the hip but the only thing I can think of is the same thing for the rear. Axle wrap wwouldd be the only think I could think of. The axle could put the U-joint in a bind and break. You could rotale the axle but you are looking at $$$$$$$$. So if you angles are all ok I don't see a big problem. I have the O.R.D. zero rates and with my lift I had to shim the frt. to keep the yokes from touching at full droop. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif
     
  3. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Im considering a shackle flip in the rear if I get as much out of the front as I would like so that should take care of wrap in back. The front is a different case. I havent got a solution for wrap in the front, But I highly doubt that even 2in would cause much, if any, wrap up there. Its all going to depend on a lot of things. Id like to try it, and I am 99.9% positive it would be safe. I know front blocks will spit out over time, (I have seen it happen /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif ) but a "zero rate" is bolted in. I dont think the same applies. To a point, and I dont want to step over it. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

    Another reason for my looking into this is I have an early (mid 70s) flat top D44 thats going in. The tie rod mounts in from the top, (and has a down swoop to the rod ends) and I want to use my late model 10 bolt tie rod, that will then be coming in from the top, but is straight. Im wanting to make sure the tie rod clears the axles. (OK! OK! I mostly want the other inch!)

    Im also looking into maybe having arms fabbed for both sides and going above the springs w/ the tie rod also. Get it out of the way so it will be less likely to get bashed, and going to rod ends. I have more ideas rattling around in my head than I have time for. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif
     
  4. Thumper

    Thumper 1/2 ton status

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    OK, I guess I want to start with:

    Lets get real. These so called 'zero rate lift springs' are just blocks that bolt into the leaf packs. Right? I mean, not to take anything away from the companys that are making and selling them, but thats all they are.

    Secondly, I went through the 'gotta have more lift' stage, as Im sure we all did, and I ran 2" blocks front and rear, that I had made up by a friend that worked in a local machine shop. He just punched a hole thru them, and I bolted them into the pack. They worked, and I never had any binding in the shafts. Of course, that was before my suspension was modded to drop as far as it does now. I have since removed them in favour of 3/4" overloads cut to the size of a block. I use them front and rear.

    Basically, I am not going to say how well the 2" ones would work on a flexible rig. But, I still run the 3/4" 'zero rate add-a-leaves' aka 'cut to size overloads' without any probs.

    Just my little rant... maybe Im jealous that I didnt start selling them first!

    Mike
     
  5. trailblazer87

    trailblazer87 1/2 ton status

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    I would just be afraid of pulling a trailer.
     
  6. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Lets get real. These so called 'zero rate lift springs' are just blocks that bolt into the leaf packs. Right? I mean, not to take anything away from the companys that are making and selling them, but thats all they are.

    [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I know aint that a kicker. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif Blocks I know are not good in the front, and I never thought about bolting them into the packs. Wish I had thought of it too. LOL!

    The gotta have more lift phase has lasted through close to 15 yrs and 3 rigs, all on 38s or 40s. But I have a limit. As much as I would like to I dont want to go 44s. 39 Boggers are the biggest I plan to ever go. I have spent the last yr thinking I wont chop anymore that what has been done to it by the PO, to "AH WTH! Wheres the sawzall!" Back to not wanting to cut anymore. I just want a few more inches to clear.

    I am more of a bogger, so height is important, but I like trails too so the flex that I have I dont want to lose. We dont have real twisty trails in Fla so what I have is sufficient. Plus I drive PI everyday to and from work, and to mom and dads when its rainy and sloppy out there. I take it everywhere. *insert hillbilly voice* I just dont take it into the big city traffic. So ride quality is important too, and dont want to lose that either. Otherwise I would just pop for 8in springs. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

    It is good to know that you have run 2in. w/ no ill effects. So chalk one up for what I was wanting. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  7. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Im already too tall to pull a trailer. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif I know people tow w/ bigger rigs but I have access to dads dually so I would never tow w/ PI.
     
  8. captain chaos

    captain chaos 1/2 ton status

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    zero rates are very easy to make. i bought the steel and then all you need is a drill press and some good bit's.
    i just made some 1 1/2" ones for the rear. it look's to be a little lower in the rear (no front clip on) so if it is i plan on making some 2" ones.
    as far as running 8"s up front, before i put my 12"s in i ran skyjacker softride 8"s up front with 42's. it rode better than my 97 furd f 350 work truck /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif .

    dave
     
  9. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    If you'll notice, the name is pretty much a joke. For legality/political correctness I came up with the "Zero Rate Add a Leaf" name so that they're OK to run front or rear but don't carry the idea of stiffness that the term "add a leaf" has now. They're a block that bolts to the spring pack. We happen to do some cool machine work to them to make it so you can use one part to move the axle forward or backward by 2 different amounts. It's not rocket science by any means! But it's nice to have a CNC mill to cut the pockets.....
     
  10. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Im still doing some measuring and figureing. What I have come up w/ is...going 2in in the shackles will drop the pinion close to 3/4 inch. No major deal there IMO but my caster will be too far then. SO I am going to go w/ a 1in shackle and only gain 1/2in. Now I am really wanting the 2in "zero rate". I looked around at the shop and found some 2x2 1/4 wall box tube I got for something else that I never used. If I sleeve where the spring bolt goes through and cap the ends I am thinking I might be able to use them. Maybe. I am pretty sure it would be plenty strong enough. (And save myself about 10 lbs of steel per side. LOL!)

    I also did some looking at the parts truck I have /forums/images/icons/grin.gif I got to looking at the front rear hangers, and how well they would look as a shackle flip. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I forgot they were on there. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

    The 8s may ride good but how well did they flex. As I said above I am not into mad flex like a bunch of people here but I want to retain some ride quality. Besides your comparing it to a Fuuurd. EWWW! LOL!

    So we are now at 2 for the 2in. 0 against. Oh wait add me and that makes 3! /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
     
  11. captain chaos

    captain chaos 1/2 ton status

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    i know furd, chevy bad comparision /forums/images/icons/blush.gif
    as far as using box tubing, you need to use solid steel.
    you have to drill 3/8 hole all the way threw then drill about a 7/8 hole part way threw to let the head sink in and het a socket on it.
    i'm not good at explaining thing's by typing so just go to ORD website and look at them.
    when i was placing a order from ORD and had the man on the phone i asked him about them and then checked out the website. after looking at them even i could figure it out.
    just remembered, you aren't looking to move the axle are you??
    then it would be really easy, but i just don't know about the tubing idea.
    but i'm nobody special.
    good luck

    dave
     
  12. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    I was wondering if you would turn up in this topic. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif Since your here, do you think 1/4 wall box will be sufficient, and do you think that 2in. is too much? I can only imagine how much a 4-5in long X 2 1/2 wide X 2in thick chunk of solid steel would weigh. Seems like it would be quite a bit.

    I wondered about moving the front axle forward, but it seems to be pretty well centered now. Likewise w/ the rear. It wasnt when I got PI, The PO installed the blocks upside down somehow and it moved the axle forward. (I still havent figured out why the pins were removable to begin w/.) /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

    I wish I had access to even a regular mill and lathe to play w/. Well I sorta do, but it requires having to go to my ex's dads house. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif He has full machine shop at home. We get along fine but really dont wanna be paling around w/ her dad. LOL!

    I wish I had thought of the "zero rate" 1st. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  13. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    the box tube has been proven not the way to go,
    it folds over need triangulation same as a good roll cage would
    I think, if you used some 2x6 cut to the length that you want as hieght and stood up on the mounts with an added section inside for the centre bolt/pin, it would work better but never seen it done so...
     
  14. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    thank you for that post,
    I was wondering about your creative labelling
     
  15. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    I don't like the idea of putting 2" worth of anything in between the spring and axle. I am fairly conservative on some of this but regardless, there's a lot of leverage on a front end. If you decide to do this, you definitely need to brace the inside of the tube somehow.

    One thing to watch also: when ubolts get longer they have more potential to stretch and loosen up, and the more leverage they have against them, the higher the stress in the bolt.
     
  16. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Thats why I figured keep them a bit longer than the the Ubolts are wide to keep them as short as possible w/ caps on the ends to make a complete box. But I have put more thought into it and I have to agree its not the way to go. Just a passing thought.
     
  17. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Theres definately more forces at work in the front than the rear. This is the biggest reason I posted this to try to get some opinions. Safety is a main concern. I drive PI everyday and tote my wife and kids in it.

    Wanna see scary Stephen, take a look at my webshots and look in the parts truck album. Look good at the pics of the front, 3in blocks, and a cut and welded stock steering arm. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif When my brother towed it around the back of the shop I was trying to turn it. Key word is trying. It wouldnt turn left or right very well. I can imagine someone actually drove that thing on the same streets as I did. Thats one of those rigs you see coming and you pull off the road. I put it out of its misery. Axles are going into PI, the doors might be going on, hoods going on, bed is going to the scrap yard soon, cab is solid but may find its way to the scrap yard too if I dont find someone that wants it soon.

    Thanx for your input on this. I didnt consider the Ubolt stretch. Ill keep all this to mind while Im doing this. Still not sure if Ill go 2in or not.
     

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