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Hybrid Theory...Not Lookin Good for Us

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by bigburban383, Jan 18, 2004.

  1. bigburban383

    bigburban383 1/2 ton status

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    Automobiles are the most inefficient polluting things on this earth. Automobiles account for pretty much all the air pollution on the earth. Hybrid cars are coming if you like them or not, then fuel cell but thats not for a long time. In ten years a lot of hybrids will be on the roads getting 70 mpg with performance better then gas cars. Then to the sad part, how are the fuel companies going to make money without raising the prices to compensate? They cant so they will raise the prices. Wow, $6.00 a gallon sounds awsome, my suburban can go 10,000 for just $7500 /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  2. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    Is there anything that you won't do to stir the pot?
     
  3. Confedneck

    Confedneck 3/4 ton status

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    ehh old news.. there are electric/gas hybrid vehicles out now.. but just because fuel prices are going up, doesnt mean you will spend more in fuel.. at 70mpg.. gas sure lasts a lot longer than it does at 10mpg.. just a thought.. sure you pay 60 bucks then for 10 gallons, but it gets you 700 miles, now you pay 17 bucks for 10 gallons, and you get 100 miles.. so for 3.5 times the cost (estimation) of fuel, you get 7 times the mileage..
     
  4. Seventy4Blazer

    Seventy4Blazer 3/4 ton status

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    and the little fact of DIRECT torque..
    GM equiped a S-10 with electric motors in the wheels. then put it up against a 5.7 camaro. smoked it off the line.
    i think it will be cool. i wouldnt mind a hybrid now and am thinking of looking at a honda hybrid. for a daily driver its an awesome idea.

    GM is also putting electric motors in the trucks the end of this year. built into the BH it shuts the motor of at a stop light, then when you push the gas it starts moving the truck and turns the motor over.

    lots of cool technology out there, keep your mind open. yes, it will change all aspects of 4 wheeling, but it may end up saving our trails a bit by keeping the echo nazis off our backs and let us play more if we use hybrid rigs.
    Grant
     
  5. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    I've often thought of building a rock rig with hydraulic drive like some heavy equipment runs. Run that with an electric motor or small diesel.
     
  6. skratch

    skratch 1/2 ton status

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    That gets heavy, just think of the weight of all the hydraulic fluid you have to take with and how to keep it cool . . .
    Don't get me wrong that is a cool idea, just a lot to think about.

    As for gas/electric hybrids taking the place of normal ICE engines, that is a loooooooong way off. Will it come to that eventually? Probably, but doubtful that it will happen in my life time. It seems to me more likely to see hydrogen or propane/natural gas hybrids coming more into play before the electrics. It's easier and less costly to utilize those types of engines in current style autos than it is to completely redesign an entire industry to utilize the gas/electric or straight electric powerplant.

    Just my .02 and nothing to back it up but opinion and slight research on the GM front. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    I've seen several propane powered trail rigs before. Thumbs up to those guys for building hardcore rigs that are also environmentally sound.
    If I was really ambitious and knew I could readily refuel, that would be something I might actually be interested in. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
     
  7. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Automobiles are the most inefficient polluting things on this earth. Automobiles account for pretty much all the air pollution on the earth. Hybrid cars are coming if you like them or not, then fuel cell but thats not for a long time. In ten years a lot of hybrids will be on the roads getting 70 mpg with performance better then gas cars. Then to the sad part, how are the fuel companies going to make money without raising the prices to compensate? They cant so they will raise the prices. Wow, $6.00 a gallon sounds awsome, my suburban can go 10,000 for just $7500 /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    You might want to check your sources. Automobiles and trucks are more like 20% off all polution. Big industry (including Auto) and power companies are the other 80% of the polution. In Atlanta the power company produces about 50% of the local smog.

    While fuel cell has promise Electric that requires charge is just a Remote polluter and probably producing more polution then the typical 20mpg recipricating gasoline powered vehicle.

    Till they can figure out a way to produce more power for less energy the Gasoline auto will be king. They haven't managed it in a 100 years. I think the auto is something like 17% efficient and it's the best power output we have.
     
  8. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Automobiles are the most inefficient polluting things on this earth. Automobiles account for pretty much all the air pollution on the earth. Hybrid cars are coming if you like them or not, then fuel cell but thats not for a long time. In ten years a lot of hybrids will be on the roads getting 70 mpg with performance better then gas cars. Then to the sad part, how are the fuel companies going to make money without raising the prices to compensate? They cant so they will raise the prices. Wow, $6.00 a gallon sounds awsome, my suburban can go 10,000 for just $7500 /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    You might want to check your sources. Automobiles and trucks are more like 20% off all polution. Big industry (including Auto) and power companies are the other 80% of the polution. In Atlanta the power company produces about 50% of the local smog.

    While fuel cell has promise Electric that requires charge is just a Remote polluter and probably producing more polution then the typical 20mpg recipricating gasoline powered vehicle.

    Till they can figure out a way to produce more power for less energy the Gasoline auto will be king. They haven't managed it in a 100 years. I think the auto is something like 17% efficient and it's the best power output we have.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Rene is getting closer to the truth, but what about pollution from natural sources? I seem to recall that when Pinatubo erupted it released more greenhouse gasses than humans have in the entire history of man.
     
  9. bryguy00b

    bryguy00b 3/4 ton status

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    man, call me stuburn(sp?) and stupid, but i dont wanna know nothin bout those gay hybrid electric what not cars, it will be a sad day when everyone is driving cars the sizes of shoe boxes, and you cant even hear them. hope it doesnt happen in my life time anyway, after that, i dont care lol.. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gifi love my big noisy stinky polluting truck! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  10. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

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    i have no probs with new sources of power, maybe someday my k5 will have Mr. Fusion... who knows... who cares?

    at any rate, I wouldnt worry about hybrids making your gas prices go through the roof just yet, its likely that if less gas was being used, oil producers would simply lower production to maintain prices at sane levels. Its in the opec countries best interest to keep oil prices at a sane price per barrel for a lot of reasons, none of which are going to change due to anything hybrids are doing.

    j
     
  11. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    The cool thing about electric motors is that their torque curve is almost perfectly flat. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif They produce nearly the same torque at 10 RPM as they do at 1,000 RPM. I could be happy with a rig that had a motor at each wheel, producing perhaps 100 ft/lbs per corner! Since the power wouldn't have to go through a tranny, t-case, driveshafts and diffs, you wouldn't have the 25-30% loss of power through the drivetrain. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif And you wouldn't need posi, lockers, etc. Just flip a switch on the dash to keep all 4 motors turning in sync and it would be just like you had spools at each end.

    There has also been a lot of hype about running current internal combustion engines on hydrogen fuel. The greenies would have us believe that the only byproduct of such combustion is water. If the atmosphere was 100% oxygen then that would be true. But since it's over 70% nitrogen, the exhaust still contains lots of oxides of nitrogen, one of the primary components of smog.

    Then there's the question of making pure hydrogen in the first place. Some folks propose extracting hydrogen from natural gas (even though the natural gas industry is already having problems keeping up with the demand for natural gas just to heat our homes!) while others propose using solar energy to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen. But even on a cloudless day in the middle of summer, solar energy reaching the earth is only around 100 watts per square foot. Current photovoltaic panels are only around 20% effficient, so now we're down to about 20 watts per square foot of solar panel. It would take a LOT of energy to produce enough hydrogen via this method to be commecrially viable, and they would need alternative sources of power to keep production going at night and on cloudy days. Power levels also drop off considerably during winter months as the sun gets lower in the sky and days get shorter. The further north you get, the problems of using solar energy become even more difficult. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    So the real problem of electric cars that use batteries, or hydrogen fueled engines, is the power conversion rate. Ie, how much does it cost, and how much energy is consumed, to make the electricity or hydrogen in the first place?
     
  12. atlantak-5er

    atlantak-5er 1/2 ton status

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    I see the future going like this..First, as we are seeing now, more and more hybrid electric/gas vehicles on the roads (10-20 years). Then as fuel cell technology is perfected, a release of these vehicles begins the sharp decline of gas engines(20-40 years). Along with the downfall of the gas engine is the fall of opec and the middle easter countries that have hated us for so long even though we keep them rich. The extremists will no longer have millions of dollars to terririze people and they will be more concerend with how the hell they are going to eat(50-60 years)! Then the world will be a peaceful place until some other superpower gets rich and bored (100-150 years)....and the cycle of history goes on and on..

    K5's will come and go like the horse and buggy, so consider yourself fortune to be on this planet during the short lifespan of our beloved and bad ass K5's!!!!(K5 hobby to die in 40-50 years). This is my opinion based upon hisory.
     
  13. fourwheelerjeff

    fourwheelerjeff 1/2 ton status Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Automobiles are the most inefficient polluting things on this earth....

    [/ QUOTE ]


    You might want to check your sources. Automobiles and trucks are more like 20% off all polution. Big industry (including Auto) and power companies are the other 80% of the polution....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Rene is getting closer to the truth...

    [/ QUOTE ]


    "Rene" /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif i thought his name was eric /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  14. Shaggy

    Shaggy 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    "Rene" /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif i thought his name was eric /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Apparantly I need to pay closer attention to who's posting. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif My apologies.
     
  15. laketex

    laketex 3/4 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Is there anything that you won't do to stir the pot?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hi "Kettle", meet Bigburban383, aka "Pot"!!! /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  16. mastercraftkpk

    mastercraftkpk 1/2 ton status

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    They haven't found a way of taxing Pinatubo....YET.

    States are beginning to differentiate between "pollution" and greenhouse gases. The orig. post spoke directly to auto exhaust, which happens to make both.

    Keep in mind that carbon DIoxide is listed as a greenhouse gas, not just carbon MONoxide. The worlds largest contributing country of CO is China, yet China remains under the radar due to its limited ability to pay any $$$$$ when compared w/ the US.

    Recently REAL SCIENCE has begun to look at "global warming" and has determined that "as hard as we may try, mankind remains unable to control mother nature." In other words, natural causes are far more responsible for any recent (last 500 years) increase in temperature. There are always hidden adjendas involved in this whole greenhouse deal.

    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  17. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    You have to wonder how much the government wants to move to alternative energy. They make a lot of money off of gas taxing and taxing the petroleum companies. Its like I say to my customers at work, if everyone who said they were gonna quit smoking did, the tax revenue lost would be tremendous.
     
  18. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    You can bet that the gov't will figure out a way to add road use taxes to alternative fuels, but not until enough people have changed over that it's too late to turn back. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif The money to build and maintain roads has to come from somewhere... TANSTAAFL. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Today there are tax incentives to get people interested in alternative fuels, hybrid cars, etc. But once a clear winner has been determined then the incentives will disappear.
     
  19. CyberSniper

    CyberSniper 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Hybrids aren't going to be replacing gassers anytime soon. Hybrids are for trendy hosers that cry when they're not on their trendy medication.

    Nobody wants to plug their car in at night. Nobody wants to drive 70 miles to buy a cylinder of hydrogen. Nobody wants to drive a vehicle that can only pass a gas station and 1989 Honda CRX hatchbacks laugh at.

    The hybrids can avoid most of that by using new fuel cell technology. However, propane has existed for a long time, especially in pickups (very cheap to do on TBI Chevys). It has never really taken off even though it offers superior gas mileage. Why has it not succeeded? Nobody wants to fuel up your tank...


    So, let's pick on my favorite Honda, the Insight.

    Its gas motor makes a whopping 67hp@5500rpm. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif It makes the same amount of torque only a thousand rpm sooner. The 14hp electric motor is powered using a nickel metal hydride battery that is commonly found in your laptop and I used in my RC cars ten years ago because NiCad batteries were "inferior". It weighs a "meager" 1800lbs. If you rode the clutch on this thing so she stayed at 5500rpm you'd be operating at ~25lbs/horsepower... if no one was in it. Fill 'er up with people and the only thing slower is your neighbor on their Rascal.

    Now that I'm done ragging on "dahonda" let's rag on the "slowyota". The Toyota Prius is a modern wonder. It has the same kind of numbers coming out of its gas motor but about 500rpm sooner if I remember correctly. The electric motor makes a scary 44hp peak. However, the car is a bit of a heifer at a thousand pounds heavier than the Insight. I'm pretty sure the space shuttle could beat the Prius to the finish line in a drag race if it went the opposite way around the world. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


    Hybrids aren't going to replace gassers anytime soon. Fancy econoboxes like the Metro was before it died or the Aveo are going to be around for a long time. Eventually even the Cavalier will bust into the 30mpg arena.

    The problem with approaching high effiency gassers is that everything becomes dealer serviceable only. It's scary enough the computers on cars now. Throttle by wire is even a bit spooky to me. Now we're leaning towards brake and steer by wire.
     
  20. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    I never want steer or brake by wire. Its scary enough when my brakes become almost unusable when the motor stalls or I get a vaccum leak. If they start heavily selling steer by wire vehicles they better make full hydraulic steering street legal.
     

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