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hybrids

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by surpip, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    been thinking a lot about these cars lately
    why are people so one sided about hes cars? "hey its a hybrid it must be good for the environment right?"
    what about when the battery's die, what is the impact to the environment then? or what was the impact to produce them? some cars you have to plug in, electricity for the most part in the country means coal burning power plants, so what about the extra pollution there?
    How come no one ever thinks of these things?

    I would be willing to bet the , well lets take a Honda civic for example:
    hybrid vs. non hybrid, the non would produce less total pollution over its whole life than the hybrid.

    just thinkin
     
  2. Jagged

    Jagged 1 ton status

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    I've been thinking the same thing... especially with SLAB's (sealed lead acid batteries). How do you dispose of acid and lead?

    What happens when these cars get into a wreck and batteries leak?
     
  3. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    You guys are exactly right in your thoughts on these things..

    The thing that gets me is that the hybrid owners and supporters look down on the SUV owners, BUT those hybrids would cost twice as much as they do if honda and toyota didn't have huge SUV's to sell at a big profit.. so, big SUV's make the hybrids economically viable to produce.. one doesn't exist without the other..

    Speaking of solutions that aren't really solutions..

    I met a guy here in northeast ohio who is making a methanol fuel out of things like old plactic bottles, and other waste products.. his goal is to blend his fuel with gasoline...I asked him how he felt about the fact that since alcohol fuels have a lower energy content than gasoline, motorists would ultimately burn more fuel overall..His comeback to me was that while what I said was true, it was really most important to be "doing something"..


    Here's another one.. ethanol and biodiesel raise NOx levels.. these fuels are being pushed everywhere.. however, over 400 counties have been designated by the USEPA as having too much NOx ( and thus ozone) in the air.. so, if states don't clean up the air, they face losses in federal highway funds, fleets face operating restrictions, and business will be crippled. BUT, this same gov't is a cheerleader for mandating the fuels that raise these pollutants.. So both the politicians and the EPA gets to feel like they're winning, and the guy with the truck is caught in the middle..

    Back on point, regardless of the solutions you're talking about, all of the unintended consequences get pushed under the rug, because folks are more interested in feeling good about themselves than anything..oh, and the tax incentives attached to these things don't hurt either..

    Tom
     
  4. K5Greek

    K5Greek 1/2 ton status

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    i thought ethanol was supposed to create 0 emmisions? only downside to it is that it is early in its life and it produces a little more power than regular gasoline, but offers slightly less gas mileage
     
  5. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    No "bargain"...

    I feel a "regular" car,that is gas or diesel powered is superior to a "hybrid" car in many ways..for one,hybrids are more expensive--if not for tax incentives,etc,they would cost 5000 dollars + more than a "normal" car does..and the batteries are an issue,as noted..disposal of them will likely involve a disposal fee,which means most of them will be dumped in ditches on dirt roads,just like many tv sets and computers ,and A/C units our landfill charges fees to dispose of,rather than properly..I bet those batteries dont last as long as you are led to beleive,and I've heard one new battery is 2000+ bucks!..

    I feel a small diesel car like the VW rabbits and Jetta's is a far more economical means of transport than a hybrid..40-50 mpg on regular diesel,available just about anyplace--even gas powered Geo's get 40+ mpg!...no "hi-tech" fancy computerized alternator to charge those heavy batteries (which probably costs a fortune,if it should ever need to be serviced or replaced)...no costly electric motor,or computer controller to go awry....its simply too much space age wizardry for no real purpose or advantage if you ask me..I wonder what a used Honda Insight or other "hybrid" will be worth in 10 years-:confused: -IF it still moves and drives that is!.:crazy:
     
  6. beater_k20

    beater_k20 Banned

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    i'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

    look at the people who are buying them. they're not very mechanically inclined. they're the "we've got money, and we're helping the environment" crowd. they're not going to change the batteries, or perform other maintnance on them themselves.

    on the other side of the spectrum, you've got guys like us. i refuse to take my stuff to a shop, unless i have absolutely no way of fixing what is wrong. if the other crowd was like us, then you may have a problem.
     
  7. MarcS

    MarcS 1/2 ton status

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    I've "heard" that insurance companies are refusing to pay for clean ups when these cars are in accidents and the acid spills. Don't know how true it is though. Has anyone else heard this ???
     
  8. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    haven't heard..

    I haven't heard of that,but I wouldn't be suprised if its true..insurance companies are always looking for ways to get out of "paying out" as much as possible..you might be socked with a "hazardous waste disposal" cleanup fee if a wreck cracks a battery,much like you pay for a telephone pole if you take one down in a crash...

    That brings up another question..if a battery DOES crack,leak,or explode,how long do you think it'll be before the wiring,electric motor and its computerized controls,and the car itself will last,before it turns into a corroded ,green fuzzball from being doused with battery acid?..

    I doubt there would be any way to neutralize ALL of it..and we all know what a battery tray looks like after a battery peukes on it...:doah: ..
     
  9. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    You get a bit of a particulate matter reduction ( because ethanol isn't a hydrocarbon), but there's a documented increase in NOx. Ethanol really doesn't produce more power - it just has a high octane rating which indicates it's resistance to detonation, but octane isn't an indicator of a fuels power output, although many people believe it is..

    Another thing is that ethanol isn't in it's infant stage.. we tried all of this back in the 70's and the fuel still acts the same as it did then.. lower mileage, reduced lubricity in the fuel, attracts moisture, attacks nylon & seals, etc.. only difference is now it's being subsidized and mandated by congress, and made attractive with tax incentives..

    Tom
     
  10. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    I've heard that, and I've also heard that rescue squads are scared sh*tless of cutting these cars apart to get accident victims out - they've got a hard enough time with airbags all over the place, now this.. can't wait for on board hydrogen tanks, eh?

    Tom
     
  11. Corey 78K5

    Corey 78K5 1 ton status

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    The big question is are the battery's recyclable! I have a problem with hybrids for the simple fact that they cost way to much. For what you would pay for one both in cost and in insurance I'm sure You could get several cars that get easy 35-40 mpg for thousands less. Not to mention hybrids get better "city" mpg's so for hi way commutes they don't hold an advantage at all.
    Myself I would like to see more research into 3 and 4 cylinder diesel engines for small cars. Many would argue that a diesel engine would be to heavy but it has be proved that aluminum parts can cut down the weight. I think the Duramax has proved that with it's aluminum heads.
     
  12. MTBLAZER89

    MTBLAZER89 3/4 ton status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    There was a great article about this last year in Car and Driver or Road and Track don't remember. Basicly it said all the same things about the batteries and stuff. They compared a Prius to a Corrola I believe it was. They gave some great figures about how gas would have to X.XX amount of dollars something pretty crazy or drive an insane amount of miles a year to justify the price difference for mileage. The hybrid car is a "feel good purchase"

    It's kinda like the "I bought a diesel for the mileage" guys. 20 mpg vs 15 is gonna take awhile to justify the $7500 upgrade of a diesel plus maintenance costs.
     
  13. fabjunkie

    fabjunkie 1/2 ton status

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    I opened this expecting to see the other type of hybrids. I'm dissapointed.
     
  14. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    what?
     
  15. 84k5

    84k5 1/2 ton status

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    I hate hybrids. Every ****ing asshole in davis has one.

    However, biodiesel is my secret lover. I think its the coolest ****.:pimp:
     
  16. blazinzuk

    blazinzuk Buzzbox voodoo Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    I think almost everyone has a point here, ethanol should work it works in Brazil. Its a proven fact that if you expoit the benefits of ethanol it can make good power. I think the hybrids are going to end up in hands of poeple who are not rich but just want good mileage and who could care less about the enviroment so I think many of these cars and there batteries will be dumped out in our public lands. Like has been said the answer to reduce emmisions is small gas and diesel powered cars, I had a Geo Metro (90) that we built a header for, good exhaust (cat intact used an aftermarket high flow deal) put a jacobs ignition system on it. I got 55 mpg at 65 mph and 50 mpg at 75. Unfortunately the only thing it could pass is a gas station. On one tank I actually got 60 mpg (went about 300 miles in a fog in washington at about 60 mph) So I say the answer is not hybrids the answer is small cars that use proven technology.
     
  17. 2BLAZERS

    2BLAZERS 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    WOW, I thought the anti-SUV crowd was bad. You guys will hate me then. We have a Toyota Camry Hybrid on order it will be here next week. The reasons we are buying a hybrid have everything to do with mileage compared to the current vehicles we have. We have not had a car for several years. My wife drives a Ford Excursion, I drive a '05 Dodge Diesel Dually. I also have two k5 Blazers that are works in process. If we already had a car I would not trade it in unless it was time.

    I have several points to make:

    When you look at hybrids paying for themselves the early studies used cheap gas assumutions. A study Edmonds.com put out this week says a Camry Hybrid (the premium) will pay for itself in 6 years at 15,000 miles per year and gas at $3.00/gallon. We will be doing about 25,000 miles a year. This study also does not take into effect the Oregon state tax credit of $ 1,500. I don't think gas will stay at $3.00 per gallon the next 6 years:))

    A lot of our miles are around town or in stop and go traffic. This is were the Hybrid will be used mostly. Most of our big trips our towing, hence I am keeping the Excursion and the Dually.

    Insurance is no more expensive with the hybrid. Some insurance companies are giving hybrid owners discounts for being so green. Our credit union is also offering special financing rates on hybrids.

    I am getting tax credits of $ 4,100. This offsets the hybrid premium, when campared to looking at a fully loaded normal Camry. Ours will be fully loaded. Yes the are many other cars that get good mileage, but my wife would not go to a smaller car then the Camry, she is use to driving a Ford Excursion. It is actually a pretty large car. The only other car we really compared was a Volkwagon Jetta with the TDI and the Mercedes Benz E320 TDI. We did not like how the Volkwagon drove, and the dealer was a jerk. The Mercedes was a very nice car but did not want to spend $ 55,000 on it. Also, I filled up my diesel truck last night 3.43/gallon, gas is 2.83/gallon.

    I talked to the deput fire chief in town, friend of ours, they are not scared of hybrids. The eletrical system shuts down when the airbags deploy.

    Yes the hybrid system is complicated, I will not touch the car except oil changes and tires. I don't have time to work on it with 4 other trucks and my ATVs too. With it being a Toyota I should not need to worry about anything for years.

    The batteries are warrantied for 10 years or 100,000 miles.

    We are happy with our decision. FLAME SUIT ON:haha:
     
  18. jekquistk5

    jekquistk5 Weld nekid Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    I have no problem with people who buy hybrids, but I agree about the rabit and other smaller cars with small diesels. I actually saw a comercial about the new vDUB rabit yesterday, looks kida like a golf.
     
  19. beater_k20

    beater_k20 Banned

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    we used to have a delivery guy at the local Napa store who swore by VW Rabbit diesels. he knew a buch of little tricks to squeak more power and milage out of them, and did all of his own maintnance and repair work. every one that he would find for sale, or broken down somewhere he'd buy up. used to have 10-15 of them at any given time. talked to him quite a bit about them. actually got me kind of interested in them, if only they werent so damned ugly! the pickup version might actually make a pretty decent parts hauler too.
     
  20. camiswelding

    camiswelding 1/2 ton status

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    rhe carmakers are going kicking and screaming....

    in the next couple of years there will be more choices out there

    you cant go wrong with toyota.... however "hybirds" are currently sold at a loss for them... and they havent been around long enough to see the batteries starting to go bigtime

    We have looked at all the high fuel economy gasser econoboxes... most look like rolling coffins in an accident...

    Working on a "hybird"... forget that... parts in okidokie USA at midnight... forget it

    Were not ready to jump yet.... but over time.. we will
     

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