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hydraulic winch: turning while winching

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by four_by_ken, Jul 18, 2001.

  1. four_by_ken

    four_by_ken 1/2 ton status

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    I keep coming back to looking at a hydraulic winch. I have been told that they burn up power steerinf pumps, but just get a new one to start with and a cooler and I think it would be ok. I have also been told they are real slow. But hey.

    The big thing I dont like that I heard was the loss of steering power while winching. Is this true?

    I like the idea of being able to winch for a long time and not worry as much as with an electric.

    Thanks
    Ken H.
     
  2. mattman

    mattman 1/2 ton status

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    I had a question about hydraulic winches that might answer/help you out. Does anybody know the power requirements of a power steering pump? I was thinking that you could use a 12 v motor to turn a separate power steering pump, thereby having a hydraulic winch whether the engine is on or off. The only hitch is the 12 volt motor. I don't know what to use to turn the power steering pump. This also has the added advantage of not screwing up the current power steering system.

    90 GMC Jimmy, 350 TBI, 700R4, 32's
    84 Bronco II 204,000 miles and counting...........that's 207,000 and counting now
     
  3. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    All of the hydrualic winches I have seen are PTO driven.


    my truck's not dirty, it's earth tone paint
     
  4. four_by_ken

    four_by_ken 1/2 ton status

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    People set up electrical systems with dual alternators all the time. Why not dual power steering pumps?

    Ken H.
     
  5. four_by_ken

    four_by_ken 1/2 ton status

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    I am sure you heard of Milemarker's hydraulic that used the power steering pump to power it????

    Ken H.
     
  6. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    While I think the hydraulic winch is a great idea, I also think that the fact that the engine must be running for it to work is a bit of a problem. If you're stuck in a river crossing with a drowned engine, you have no winch. Lay the truck on its side out in the boonies somewhere and you have no winch. I've seen electric winches used sucessfully to retrieve vehicles in both situations.

    <font color=black>HarryH3 - '75 K5</font color=black>
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck>www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck</a>
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  7. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    That is a good point to consider.

    my truck's not dirty, it's earth tone paint
     
  8. BlazerGuy

    BlazerGuy 3/4 ton status

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    I've never seen a hydraulic winch that was powered by PTO. I don't think it's even possible as each of the systems are totally different from each other. I would go with electric for fourwheelin purposes. I think a hyrdaulic winch is more at home on commerical vehicles such as tow trucks where they are used for loooong pulls all day long. Almost every time I've been out with people who use their winches, they only need to them to pull a couple of feet. Plus they run with the engine off and it's easier to run power to the back of the truck for multi-mount winches.

    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.k5.rockcrawler.com>Click here to see my K5</a>
    *<font color=red>under construction</font color=red>*
     
  9. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    The winches on those tow trucks that you mentioned are the very ones that use PTO to power the hydraulic pump. [​IMG]

    <font color=black>HarryH3 - '75 K5</font color=black>
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck>www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck</a>
    It's a great day to be alive...
     
  10. mattman

    mattman 1/2 ton status

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    You all have missed my point. The reason for the auxiliary pump is for when the engine is dead. That way it can work off of the battery and still pull you out. I figure (if I can find the right pump) that this is cheaper than a winch since you won't need double batteries and the associated wiring and charging systems. After all a winch consumes 300+ amps where hopefully my motor will only be like 10 - 20 amps, less than a stereo amp.

    90 GMC Jimmy, 350 TBI, 700R4, 32's
    84 Bronco II 204,000 miles and counting...........that's 207,000 and counting now
     
  11. Grim-Reaper

    Grim-Reaper 3/4 ton status Author

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    They suck! A bud just dumped his for a 8274. Yes they can run continuos but seldom do you need to do a full load pull for more that about 45 seconds so who cares. When you get down to it with beefing up the pump and the cooler you will find you need it's not more expensive to get electric and electric is easier to hook up and does work with the engine dead. My bud fried to pumps on his and the second was a AGR.
    I know another guy that got hist truck totaled by one poping into free spool. Hardly any laod on it when it happend too. He was respooling his cable. My bud had his do that on him also so it's not a rare occurance it's a pretty comon problem.
    Did I mention PAINFULLY slow. I'm getting a HS9500i. You can get thme for around $800 at Clemson4x4. 500 lb less than the MM and 10 times faster. I watched Dep dog pull his truck back on it's wheels then dragged it up the hill with the parking brake on engine off in about 30 seconds. That's what you need when wheeling.
    If it is going to run off the engine then let it be PTO and have a 30k rating.

    It's not my damn planet monkey boy!
    <a target="_blank" href=http://communities.msn.com/OffroadK5s>communities.msn.com/OffroadK5s</a>

    Grim-Reaper
     
  12. 6.2Blazer

    6.2Blazer 1/2 ton status

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    I'm not sure about the loss of powersteering while winching, but I would definitely think that the power assist would at least be greatly diminished.

    Concerning using an electric motor to turn a p/s pump, which then runs an hydraulic winch, I don't see why you would do this?? The biggest advantage the hydraulic system has is that it does NOT rely on the electrical system and can be run continuous for long periods of time. Rigging up an electric motor just kind of seems to defeat the whole point of the hydraulics. I would also think you would have to have a decent size electric motor to provide enough "oomph" to run a p/s pump at the proper speeds. Also, this doesn't sound like it would be any cheaper or easier than upgrading the stock charging system. Speaking of which, a lot of guys in our club run electric winches off of stock systems with single batteries. Sure you can't pull as long without letting the battery recharge, but they can always get themselves out of trouble. I would think that upgrading to a good battery and maybe a factory type heavy duty alternator would be sufficient for the normal winching needs.

    Now after all of that, if you want to try it, go for it.
     
  13. HarryH3

    HarryH3 1 ton status Author

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    Mattman, I don't think that you'll find a motor that can spin a hydraulic pump with just 10-20 amps. The freakin' fan blower motor pulls that much just blowing a little air around. You'd need something more along the lines of a starter motor that draws, oops!, 200-400 amps depending on load. [​IMG]

    Maybe an electric over hydraulic unit from a snowplow setup would work for a short duration pull. But they aren't set up to build a whole lot of pressure since they only have to lift or turn the plow, not an entire vehicle.

    <font color=black>HarryH3 - '75 K5</font color=black>
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck>www.angelfire.com/super/ThunderTruck</a>
    It's a great day to be alive...
     
  14. michaelm

    michaelm 1/2 ton status

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    2 points
    1- can you call it a milemarker so as to distinguish it from REAL hydraulic setups.

    2- why not use a Briggs Stratton to turn a hydro pump as your backup. couple of quick connectors and your portable power pack would turn that winch.
     
  15. four_by_ken

    four_by_ken 1/2 ton status

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    Ok then, what is a REAL hydraulic setup? What other manufactureers are there of hydraulic other than Milemarker. I am looking for an alternative to electric.

    Thanks
    Ken H.
     
  16. michaelm

    michaelm 1/2 ton status

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    every winch manufacturer offers a hydro version of their winches for industrial aps. you either run a dedicated hydro pump off of a pto on the tranny or transcase, or belt driven from engine. i like the old worm drive style winches and the one from this one looks nice.

    if you prefer here is a link to their hydraulic industrial line

    i didnt find warns industrial section but i know they have it as that is what is used by many wreckers.
     
  17. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    I ran a dedicated belt driven hyd pump to a spool valve and used a mile marker 10K# motor and body with pretty good success. They're right, it's not available without the motor running. I never had any problems with that feature, but it's possible. There's really only been a couple of times when the hydraulic did things that an elec would not. One in particular was on the Y2K5 run last summer when Ken Brown's wiring harness wigged out and I did a dead pull up a pretty nasty hill, which isn't too extraordinary, except I know we pulled the length of the cable at least 4 times, and did it 20-30 feet/min and the only rest was the time that it took me to back up for the next pull. I don't think an elec. would do that. But that's a pretty rare situation, for me at least. I do end up being the winch meister from time to time, but that is also not as demanding.

    A 12V elec driven hyd pump could be added to drive the winch if the motor's off, but it' going to be pretty slow unless you get a big system. Check out Northern Hydraulics, they have an OK selection of hydraulic equipment.

    Mile marker has a hydraulic pump mated to a briggs and stratton motor to power their winches for remote use, that idea may have some possibilities also.

    For most vehicle recovery, an elec will work probably 90% of the time, and the other 10%, you just have to slow down, or do some extra recovery work, which usually isn't too big of a deal for the average wheeler.

    Note: industrial hyd winch setups will drive the hyd pump right off of the trans or t-case PTO. That system in particular is not very friendly to vehicle recovery. Could you imagine being in a situation where you couldn't help the winch with the tires! That would suck.

    Making the world better, one truck at a time.
    SW-ORD
     
  18. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    One more thing to keep in mind, remember that winching takes power. An elec winch will use about a 4hp motor (give or take a little) to reel the cable in, and you'll use all that power on a heavy pull. A power steering pump should be able to provide a little more power than that, but not a lot. So to do much winching, you're going to need a similar size elec motor to drive the hyd pump to run the winch.

    Power required is power required and has to come from somewhere whether it's elec power or fluid power.

    More ideas that probably won't work but might be neat to look at: a hand hydraulic pump. There are some decent size pumps out there that could put out enough pressure to drive the winch, but would be really slow. However, it could be better than walking.

    OH yeah, a high lift really does make an OK emergency winch.

    Making the world better, one truck at a time.
    SW-ORD
     
  19. BlazerGuy

    BlazerGuy 3/4 ton status

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    Well you learn something new everyday! [​IMG]

    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.k5.rockcrawler.com>Click here to see my K5</a>
    *<font color=red>under construction</font color=red>*
     
  20. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    Funny--I only know one person with a winch, and I think his is broke.

    If we get stuck we just use one truck to pull out another, what's so bad about that?

    Tim
    '84 Chevy K10, lifted, loud, fast, and 3/4 ton axles
     

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