Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

Hydro Assist Without Crossover?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by mikey_d05, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. mikey_d05

    mikey_d05 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Posts:
    10,453
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Alright, here the plan. I'm going to use 4" lift springs and a 0-rate to move my axle forward 1"-1.5". I have two questions...first, is there enough adjustment in the factory push/pull steering that I can keep it for now? I know I'll need a block or pitman arm to accomodate for the lift, my main question is how moving the axle forward will effect the steering. Second, is there any disadvantage to running hydro assist with the factory steering setup? I can do a hydro assist setup very cheap so I'd kinda like to take that road for now.
     
  2. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Posts:
    16,870
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    you can't do hydro assist without crossover. When you run hydro assist with stock steering it puts a lot of load on the draglink cause it pushs and pulls doesn't go side to side like the tie rod. And as for the steering I do not believe it has the adjustment. THe draglink would be too short and a real pain offroading.
     
  3. xtrmjoe

    xtrmjoe 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Posts:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Boonville, CA
    I put zero rates on the front and it worked ok but was annoying because the turning radius is so large. I had to trim a little off the ends of the links to screw them in ehough to make it work though. So I just put the axle back to its normal location and like it mush better until I go to 52"s and xover steering.
     
  4. mikey_d05

    mikey_d05 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Posts:
    10,453
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I'm thinking about putting the hydraulic cylinder on the tie rod. It sounds kinda dumb at first but I'd be using a cheap cylinder so if I mess it up it can be replaced. If I seriously screwed it up on the trail, I can take it off, plug the lines at the box, and keep going...which would be a pain without crossover...I guess I'm talking myself into it :D Any further info would still be appreciated.
     
  5. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Posts:
    16,870
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    no, you always mount the ram on the tie rod. Thats the way it is done(I have seen some on the drag link but thought it dumb with all the motion of it). I'm telling you, that the force the hydro cylinder puts ont he steering system will not work out with the push pull style steering. I can't put it into words at the moment, hopefully someone else will. The thing is if you have a problem it will likely be a failure, you can't just plug the cylinder and go with a busted drag link.
     
  6. Fubeca

    Fubeca 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Posts:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Denver Area
    I'm not an expert :confused: but I don't think it will work well.

    The main reason to go to cross over is "bump steer" which is caused by the axle raising or lowering relative to the truck creating a severe angle at the drag link shortening or lengthening the effective length of the connection between the pitman arm and the steering arm (for instance if you are crossed up you may not be able to turn the wheels one direction even if you try).

    If you put hydro assist on a stock steering setup, during a bump steer situation – the hydraulic ram will try to turn the steering through its normal range while at the same time the stock steering is keeping the steering from moving. In my mind this would likely lead to bent or broken parts.
     
  7. mikey_d05

    mikey_d05 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Posts:
    10,453
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Ok, I'm looking at an exploded diagram of factory steering right now. I think I understand what you're saying. If I stay with the OE push/pull steering and use a hydraulic ram, at the typical PITA point (driver side droop, passenger side stuff I believe) where it's near impossible to turn left, the hydraulics would be trying to rip my drag link/steering arm/insert weak part here to pieces. So in order to do this, I should start with a steering system that can turn lock to lock in all conditions...correct?
     
  8. ratzila

    ratzila 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Posts:
    691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mobile,Al
    Before I went with the 12" lift on my burb I was running 8" of lift with the factory style steering for the dana 60 front & I had the agr rock ram system. I had no problems with the steering. The steering was actually better than stock.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2005
  9. mikey_d05

    mikey_d05 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Posts:
    10,453
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    By the way, I apologize for my ignorance about some of these things. I'm only 17 and there are no mechanics in my family. Not to mention the number of rednecks (no offense to anybody) around here who think hydro steering is controlling a snowmobile while they skip it across a pond.
     
  10. nvrenuf

    nvrenuf NONE shall pass! Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Posts:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    251
    Location:
    Mobile, Al.
  11. Fubeca

    Fubeca 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Posts:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Denver Area
    That's what I see in my mind -- I've never seen one in person though so I don't know. I have heard of at least one person (local) running hydro assist with stock steering, but I don't know if he really wheeled it much.
     
  12. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Posts:
    16,870
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    EXACTLY the reason. Glad you got it, and you obviouslly have something mechanical in your head if you figured that out with my crappy help. :thumb:
     
  13. TrcksR4ME

    TrcksR4ME 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Posts:
    2,482
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA 98103
    Actually you can. It may not be the ideal setup and everything, but it will work. There is a guy who wheels with our group of people who has done it and it works great. And he does wheel the s*** out of his truck.
     
  14. jekbrown

    jekbrown I am CK5 Premium Member GMOTM Winner Author

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Posts:
    45,031
    Likes Received:
    366
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    dude, just save up your pennies until you can afford crossover and hydro at the same time. This is your steering system we're talking about. Its like your brakes... your life literally depends on it. Don't **** around trying to be cute and wind up dead or otherwise messed up. It ain't worth it, trust me.

    j
     
  15. Poohbair

    Poohbair 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Posts:
    2,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ellensburg, WA
    YES!! You can do Hydro Asst w/o crossover and it will work fine. My buddy is running this setup and has not troubles at all! I dont know how moving the axle w/ play w/ the factory draglink, but as far as the hydro assist goes... I should have done it YEARS ago w/ my factory steering.
     
  16. lziffle73

    lziffle73 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2004
    Posts:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    It'll work, I have a buddy running the same setup on his FJ40 and he wheels it hard with no problems.
     
  17. 6.2Blazer

    6.2Blazer 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2000
    Posts:
    4,675
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Ohio
    Cross-over steering and hydro assist are each done to solve different problems.

    Cross-over address the bumpsteer issue and the decrease in how far the wheels will turn when the suspension is fully flexed..........with both problems being caused by the short factory draglink.

    Hyrdro assist simply makes it easier to turn the wheels in either direction.

    If you have hydro assist with the stock push-pull system than you obviously don't address the problems that the stock steering has, and no matter how much force the hydraulics have you will still have decreased steering ability. However, I don't really see how having hydro with stock steering would really hurt it though you might be putting a little more stress into the knuckles??
     
  18. mikey_d05

    mikey_d05 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Posts:
    10,453
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Here's the way I look at it, it's easier if you can look at your truck or have a diagram of it in front of you. At the point where the most people have trouble, where the driver's side is fully extended and the passenger's side is fully compressed, the driver's side of the axle is moved slightly forward, and the passenger side is moved slightly backward because of the natural action of the shackles. The factory push/pull steering has to pull forward on the drag link to get the tires to turn left, however, because the axle itself is angled slightly right (because of the shackles) and the front of the drag link is farther forward than it normally is (once again, because of the suspension) the best you can do with factory steering is turn the wheels so that they're straight in reference to the frame and body. The steering box simply runs out of travel. With hydro assist, at that particular point, the ram is still forcing the steering to the left, even after the box has run out of travel. In extreme cases, this will cause the weakest link in your steering system to fail...which is what you were trying to eliminate in the first place. If you do a lot of mud running or trail riding and not a whole lot of technical wheeling, I could definetly see this working. However, I'm kind of a perfectionist and would like something that works under all conditions, so I'm going to save up and buy a crossover setup before I go to hydraulic assist.
     
  19. 6.2Blazer

    6.2Blazer 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2000
    Posts:
    4,675
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Ohio
    Not meaning to be nit-picky, but if the driver's side is under full droop than you can't turn to the right. The reason is because when the axle drops it pulls the pitman arm on the steering box rearward in order to make up for the increased vertical distance between the pitman arm and steering arm. A stock steering box rotating the pitman arm towards the rear of the truck will turn the wheels to the right.
     
  20. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

    Joined:
    May 30, 2001
    Posts:
    17,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    IL, USA
    If you do this, it's only a matter of time before your driver's side tire is drooped and the ram pushes hard enough to rip the steering box clean off the frame.
     

Share This Page