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Hydro Boost Rocks! UPDATE @ BOTTOM

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by willyswanter, Apr 13, 2003.

  1. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Ok, so I have hydroboost brakes and a WTO ram assist system. After speeking with Matt he said it should be fine as long as I mod the pump for more volume and pressure. So the first time I did the mods it was really good and I drilled the hole through the fitting just a little too much causing some problems. So I bought a new fitting and drilled it to where I had it before I went too far and put it in yesterday. I have no steering at idle and none at all if I hit the brakes oh and did I mention my pedal hits the floor and I can't stop? I almost ran a guy over today... What the hell? I refuse to drive the thing again till this is fixed, I have to rev to like 1500 rpm just to turn the wheels... /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif

    So what could my problem be now? It's back to exactly where it was before when it worked well and now it's like I have no pump on there at all...
     
  2. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Have you extended the filler neck for more resevoir volume?

    I have hydro boost on my Jimmy (no hydro steer though) and I can turn my 39.5's lock to lock with one finger while standing on the brakes at idle...that is with a fresh pump/resevoir I just installed though.

    Rene
     
  3. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    If your pedal is hitting the floor, its not the Hydro. If it were the Hydro you would just have a VERY stiff pedal, but brakes would be there.

    You have brake system problems.
     
  4. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    [ QUOTE ]
    If your pedal is hitting the floor, its not the Hydro. If it were the Hydro you would just have a VERY stiff pedal, but brakes would be there.

    You have brake system problems.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Correct. And if the pedal goes to the floor, that would be a master cylinder problem or even air in the lines.
     
  5. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Well if it was a brake problem how come the brakes would be perfectly fine to where I could lock up all 4 39.50's by hitting them yesterday and today after changing the hi-pressure fitting on the pump it does this?

    Yes I did extend the resevoir up about 20".

    I just went and bought a new pump because I think my pump is just basically dead. After posting this I went out and took the fitting out again and drilled the hole from 5/32" to 3/16" and the brakes came back but steering still sucks. So it's obviously not a brake system problem... At least I wouldn't think so...
     
  6. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    I'm rather intersted in how this works out for you since I'm running hydraboost brakes now and may add the WTO assist in the near future. To date, mine works perfect and I have no complaints. What I have had problems with when I first installed the system was similar to the problems your having now which resulted from air in the lines. It took me a long time work out the bubbles before the system came to life and stayed that way. I have sliced a return line to the system and lost most of my fluid which effected the steering (stiff responce and a horrible whining) but the brakes never flinched (a result of the pressure reservoir mated to the hydrabooster I assume). Once the fluid was topped back off, the whining went away and everything was back to normal.

    Now back to your problem. Before you modified the system yesterday, you had the steering, brakes and ram all working relatively fine right? Or did you add the ram at the same time you modified the pressure fitting? I'm no expert at this but I think a little deduction could help isolate the problem. We know the ram and power steering can co-exist fine, we know the hydra-brakes and steering can co-exist fine. I know that if I pump the brakes hard on mine while turning the wheel I can feel little pulses in the steering as I turn but its invisible while not touching the brakes. This would leed me to belive that any problems you have should only surface when touching the brakes under normal circumstances with all three working together. But there are a few different types of hydraboost setups out there which could react differently. My setup uses a stock power steering pump with one high pressure out, and one low pressure return (some have 2 high pressure outs and 2 returns). My pump directly feeds my Hydrabooster, and the hydrabooster then feeds my steering box, both the booster and the box share a low pressure return which "T"'s back to the pump. I'm guessing this is how yours is set up as well. Now you have 2 additional high pressure lines ported out of your steering box to the ram. Theoreticly, if your having braking broblems, the whole system should fail equally. If your having steering problems when not touching the brakes at all, then you have issues with the ram and steering box. Diagnostics of those two will be harder since one could potentially resist the other and make both seem like they are failing. Now if you have good steering which seems to fail when you hit the brakes, then I would suspect a pressure failure of perhaps the pump not keeping up.

    Above I mentioned a second case where the pump has 2 high pressure lines, one to the hydrabooster and one the steering box. I'm not familiar on how the pressure between the two lines are regulated so I can't offer any help for you there, perhaps someone else can chime in. Either way, keep an update on this post of which setup you have and symptoms your experiencing. I'll do what I can to help.
     
  7. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    My best guess on the no steering is a stuck relief valve. No idea on the brakes going to the floor. Stuck releif should make the really hard, not fall to the floor... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  8. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    [ QUOTE ]
    (some have 2 high pressure outs and 2 returns).

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Haven't seen one with 2 HP lines, most have one HP and two LP returns...
     
  9. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Ok, I got the new pump and just finished getting it all installed into the old resevoir and the paint is drying right now. The system has 1 hi-pressure line outlet and 2 resevoir inlets. I'll check on the routing when I head back out.

    Heres the series of events:

    1) I blew my seals in my power steering box on a trip with NCBD to Frank Raines.

    2) I ordered the WTO kit and received it but the Ram was on backorder so I installed just the box with caps on the hydro. fittings. I made no changes to the pump at this time.

    3) I received the ram from WTO and put it on and did not touch the pump at this time either. Steering was slow but worked rather well and the brakes were fine.

    4) I contacted Matt at WTO about what mods I should do since I have bydroboost and didn't want to flub anything up and he told me to do all 3 on the website. What I did was:

    a: Drilled fittin to 7/32" which was 1/8" larger than stock.
    b: Took piston apart and inserted one small washer/shim
    c: Stretched spring to 2"

    5) After this I noticed I had really good pressure but it was not constant. When first starting in the morning till it warmed up steering was awesome and I could turn the wheels lock to lock by just having my hand on the steering shaft. But after warming up it got difficult to steer at idle, still no effects on braking at all except for a little stutter in the brake pedal when first pushing. Other thing was the pump was whining like it was out of fluid.

    6) I contacted Matt about this and he said I drilled the pressure fitting hole to large and that the pump needs a certain amount of back pressure to keep pumping, this is why it was working sometimes and not at others. He said this would explain the whining since it wasn't pumping alot of the time.

    7) Step seven brings me to yesterday. Following Matt's advice I bought a new fitting and installed it with a 5/32" hole, which is the size he recomended to me. After this I had very very very little steering pressure at idle but it would turn. But if I hit the brakes forget about it. The pump did not whine anymore and the brakes were a little bit softer. After driving all day yesterday the steering got progressively worse and the brakes did as well to where this morning, driving home from Burger King I could not steer going 25 mph while hitting the brakes, also could not stop.

    8) Looking for a fix I pulled the fitting out again and drilled it to 3/16". Larget than what Matt recomended but smaller than the old one. The pump did not whine, still had no pressure at idle, but had most of my brakes back again and steering was better during normal driving.

    9) I went and bought a new pump and pulled the old and had them both on the work bench and pulled the fitting out of the old pump and noticed that I could not move the piston in the old pump with my finger. Where as it used to move freely. This is helping me feel better about my thinking the pump is hosed. I'm thinking during the time before when it was whining it was running dry and burnt itself up.

    10) Installed old fitting drilled to 3/16" in new pump and it's drying currently waiting to be installed. I'm a little worried that the fittin is drilled too far and if it whines I am parking the truck and buying a new fitting tomorrow and drilling it to 5/32". But if the pressure is back and good we'll know the problem is the pump.

    Ok, now, once this is done here is what I think will happen. I think the steering pressure will be great and it will steer great as well as the brakes. But, if the brakes are still bad I'm going to take it to my alignment/brake guy and have him pressure test the system to see if the m/c or booster is bad and if so I'll replace. I'm thinking it could possibly be a freak coincidence that the pump and brakes failed at the same time but I don't think there is a brake problem.

    So, I'll let you all know what happens in the next few hours. I had to pull almsot the whole drivers side of the engine apart to get to the pump so it will take a while to get it back together.
     
  10. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    That's what I expected, a stuck bypass valve. But it still does not explain the pedal going to the floor. There is no way it should have done that without a bad master cylinder...
     
  11. Pure Insanity

    Pure Insanity 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    [ QUOTE ]
    But it still does not explain the pedal going to the floor. There is no way it should have done that without a bad master cylinder...

    [/ QUOTE ] Thats what Im saying too. Or a leak somewhere. SOMETHING in the brakes cant be right. All the Hydro does is give assist like a vac booster would. Same thing only different.

    Mine will lock up the 38s one day and barely stop the next. Havent figured that one out yet, brakes just go out of adjustment for no reason.
     
  12. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Update 8:04pm PST

    Ok, I got the new pump on and the brakes are back in business and real firm but the steering still sucks. So something is still fubar in the steering system... HELP!
     
  13. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Jason. Thanks for the info on your setup, I may take this route as well. After reading the symptoms and the results of the various changes I wonder if heat or foaming may be causing the change in its characteristics over time, and that your getting closer to the right combo. When my return line broke, the fluid was rather hot and I've been thinking about adding a cooler to it. Increasing the pressure or volume of fluid pumping in the system might be generating more heat as well.

    The braking system is more forgiving to low pressure than the steering box. If you have a larger ram, the booster may be limiting the volume coming from the pump or even reducing pressure.
     
  14. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    I have the stock cooler on my truck. It's pretty large and has it's own fan. It's about 14" tall by 8" wide. I gave up for the night. I'm sick of being cold and wet and not getting anywhere so we'll see tomorrow. Sucks that it's my daily driver. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
     
  15. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Ok, heres my morning observations:

    When following the books recomendations for bleeding which is, with engine off and system filled, turn lock to lock with tires in the air 20 times. It says it will puke some fluid when doing this as air escapes. Well, I do this and it gets easier and easier to turn and does puke fluid. So after 20 it says to start engine and do the same with the tires in the air. So I do and it gets easier and easier but pukes almost all of it's fluid out... I've done this whole thing twice now with almost 2 quarts of fluid coming out each time. Does this just mean that there is so much air trapped in there that it's doing this and it will eventually stop after 20 or 90 quarts??? It's basically empy after 20 turns lock to lock...

    Also, when the tires are in the air, and I'm turning lock to lock, if I step on the brakes the steering basically locks up to nothing but the brake pedal feels really good now.

    I'm confused and want to throw my truck away... /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
     
  16. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    I've had my system down so many times I don't even think I can count that high (I'm from Alabama... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) I've never seen that much fluid come out. Maybe 1/2 cup or so if I got in a hurry. I just move the wheel back and forth slowly and it burps out in small enough increments to keep things reasonable. I wonder, can you describe your system in more detail? For instance, if you have a cooler, is it above the pump? Orientation of the hose nipples on the cooler? Etc... Have you talked to Matt at WTO more on this?
     
  17. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Matt is gone at EJS this week and won't be back till the weekend or next week... I'll go check it out and look at all the routing and get back to you in a few minutes.

    Ok, system goes like this:

    Hi-Pressure line goes to the hydroboost system then one line comes from the hydroboost back to the upper return line in the resevoir. Another line runs from the hydroboost to the power steering box. Other line from box runs to the cooler then the other line on the cooler runs to the lower return on the resevoir.

    I can't see the fittings on the cooler since it's barried behind the grill and bumper...
     
  18. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Your routing is exactly as mine. Only thing that comes to mind is that if the cooler is higher than the pump, it will be nearly impossible to bleed and may well drain back (or give huge burps while bleeding?). I guess maybe make sure (or modify as a test?) that the cooler is below the pump and the lines are on top OR that the return line is on top with the input on the bottom. I'm shooting in the dark here, but that's all I can think of. About the only other thing I can add is that it normally works very well. My only complaint is that with hydroboost AND the 2" ram, I just can't seem to get enough volume from the pump. I'm thinking of trying to mod the valve one more time and then go to dual pumps with an over-size remote reservoir, or, if I can find one, an over-drive pulley... I'm still confused by the brake behavior, that should be impossible for the hydro boost to affect it that way... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  19. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Ok, my cooler is vertical being about 6" wide and 16" tall. The lines are both on the bottom it appears. And yeah it's higher than the pump... So more than likely this is my problem eh? You think that cooler is just holding a bunch of air in the top of it and locking things up? I guess I can rip the grill off and unbolt the cooler and lower it down below the pump for bleeding. Whatcha think? If I do do this and it works correctly like this will I be able to bolt it back up to it's normal place once blead or will I have more problems? I would think once the air is out it would be ok...
     
  20. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: Hydro Boost Sucks!

    Like I said, I'm completely shooting in the dark but, what I would do now is drop the ting over so it's ports are on top and hanging below the pump. Bleed it like this and just see how things feel. If it seems to help, finish bleeding and put back in position. My suspicion is that it will want to drain back and overflow the reservoir. Of course, if it can't get air, I guess it can't drain back? Might work, give it a whirl. I mounted my cooler down on the forward cross member just in front of the fan to keep it nice and low...
     

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