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I think she is dying....UPDATE

Discussion in '1973-1991 K5 Blazer | Truck | Suburban' started by testosterone, Oct 4, 2002.

  1. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    ***well I ended up taking her to Pep Boys for a diagnosis and after spending 90 bucks they told me to change the plug wires..I did that and the plugs too and she runs like the wind again. The tech did tell me that I needed to change the head gasket..said there was oil in the radiatior but I didnt see anything. Im gonna drain the coolant this weekend and see whats in there..as always, this site is the absolute best...thanks a million for all of the advice.
    /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


    As some of you might remember i was having a bad bad problem with hesitaion and backfires and what not. and since my little neon was doing the same we came to the conclusion that it was the fuel. SO I loaded her up with fuel line cleaner (vp racing) and stp fuel cleaner and two bottles of water removal stuff, drove her around till she was empty and then filled her up with high octane chevron and added vp racing fuels octane boost (like 7pts boost) and she seemed to be doing fine for about two weeks then today she just lost it. felt liek she was gonna fall apart there was so much hesitation and shake and what not. thinking im going to change the fuel filter agian, check the plugs (it would backfire and it sounded as if it came from the front????) make sure the plugs didnt detonate, check my dirve line for probs there theat might make it shake, my dist and vacume hoses....i dont know what else to do..she idels fine except every once in awhile it will loose it for a split second....when i gas her she goes..im so lost i dont know what else to do
     
  2. shane74

    shane74 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Check your plug wires and your ECM. I had the exact same problem. I had a couple of bad wires and the computer was trying to compensate so much that it started doing all kinds of funky stuff. I replaced so much other stuff and it didn't fix it, so I gave up and took it to the dealer and had them diagnose it. It cost me $80 to learn that my #3 and 5 plug wires were bad and that my ECM had an intermittent short in it. The wires were fine at idle, but they would short out under load (acceleration). By that time I had already spent a ton of $$ trying to fix it on my own. This is one of those time when I wish I would have went to a shop to start with. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  3. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    I agree with Shane here, and if you plan on keeping it, go spend $130 on a scanner for it, (a real one, like an auto x-ray 240) and definitely a GM service manual, and GM electrical manual.

    That scanner will be cheaper than blindly replacing any 4 components on the engine anyways.

    Sounds kind of like a timing issue, which could mean a number of things. Knock sensor, ESC module, etc. But without a scanner, and a service manual, you'll be dumping $$$ into it trying to figure out whats wrong.
     
  4. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Thanks guys..I will take her to a shop.
     
  5. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Don't want to get a scanner??? Thats all they will do with the truck, and then if they can't figure it out (because they have no service manual) they'll blindly start replacing parts too.

    Just as an example, but if you have an EGR code, it could be the EGR, or a switch FOR the EGR, vacuum line to EGR, etc., but the truck ECM doesn't know which it is, just that the EGR isn't working right, so to fix the problem without testing components, a shop will replace all of them, (my bet would be EGR first) UNTIL the problem goes away, not before figuring what the problem really is.

    Of course, at $75 an hour, (GM's rate as I recall, but at least they will have the service manual) it probably is "cheaper" to throw parts at a problem, than spend the time diagnosing it, but man, $75 for one hour, I'd gladly spend 7 hours diagnosing it, even if I knew the shop could fix it correctly, just for $75.

    I have no faith in shops anymore,(can you tell??) take it to a shop and I'm betting that it comes out running A)no better than before, if not worse or at least a different problem and/or B)more than one item has been replaced.

    Of course, you'll have NO idea which components were REALLY bad, you'll just be paying them $50-75 an hour (going rates, right?) to plug a scanner in, (which they had better have) check error codes, replace whatever major component the ECM sees as a problem (EGR, O2, etc.) then when that doesn't fix it, start throwing more parts at it.

    And if anyone doesn't see replacing whatever the ECM SAYS is wrong as a problem, I just worked on a friends '94(?)Ranger. Ford, well, sucks, and their OBD1 system doesn't let you see live data like GM does. So you get JUST error "statements". This one was spitting out "02 sensor bad" and something generic like "bad MAF, or low voltage to MAF". MAF sensor is somewhere around $150 I believe, O2's around $40. Owner decided to throw an O2 sensor on it, and guess what? Both error codes disappeared, and all was good. Point is, ONE bad sensor can throw the whole system off, and that can cause NUMEROUS codes, which indicates many failed components, which is not the case. Again, the manual will tell you what every sensor should be spitting out, the scanner will show whats really going on, and the manual will tell you how to troubleshoot, typically via flowcharts.

    If the shop doesn't own a service manual for your exact truck, you should turn around and walk out, because without the service manual, they can't know what a scan is showing, (voltage, pressure, etc) and what they SHOULD be seeing. Troubleshooting sensors without knowing the necessary values, is like trying to test an alternator, with no clue what voltage the electrical system was, and no way to measure it.

    Hmm. This turned out long. Think I've noticed a trend in how owners *try* to fix problems, and how shops screw people?

    I know there are people out there that don't have space to fix a vehicle, or don't think they have the skill, (isn't this place and thirdgen.org out there to help owners learn?) but last I checked, being a mechanic doesn't usually require a BA (or even a HS diploma) and just like anything else, until you try, you'll NEVER know if you can do it.

    But if anyone thinks its cheaper and more cost effective to pay someone else to mess your vehicle up, than doing so yourself (haha : ) then you must be making a heck of a lot more money than I am.

    I'm of course not flaming the original poster, honest mechanics, GM, or people that don't bother trying to diagnose problems, I would just like to see more honest, capable shops out there worth taking vehicles too, and I hate seeing over and over again, people getting screwed by shops. Whether my preference is doing it myself, or taking it to a shop, either way it should be done right, and at this point in time, I believe doing it yourself is the only way to assure it is done right.
     
  6. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    I would much rather not take it to the shop. Its not throwing a check engine light..i think that i will start by changing the fuel filter again..maybe all the [censored] in the tank clogged it again.i checked the spark plugs and they are fine...next i will check the ignition stuff..damn thing still drives but she shakes and rattles like crazy..at 85mph but i stomp her and she goes..rough but goes..i take my foot off the gas and she does not run rough at all..so maybe a fuel pump also?? it will take some time but i will figure it out
     
  7. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    First I want to agree with Dorian 100%.
    I have been screwed enough times that now I have tools worth more than my 10 car collection combined.
    I do everything myself because I (Architect ) know that I have an analytical brain better than most mechanics that didn't even go to high school, and I did say most because I am sure there are some great mechanics out there but I haven't met them yet.
    I would rather spend the time and make a few mistakes and end up fixing the problem, that made it possible for me to get back home from almost every time I got a mechanical problem on the road.
    Now I am sorry for the long letter.
    Back to the purpose of this thread, if you had a filthy tank and you changed the filter and it got better for a while then got bad again, it could be the same thing that happened to me this week, it turned out to be the pump that got full of dirt. My luck it was a new pump so all it needed was cleaning and it runs great now.
    Check it, or if you don't have time to mess with it, change it, it's cheap insurance, it sould be old enough to justify changing it right? I would do the same for the wires.
    IceMan
     
  8. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Fuel pumps do cause problems, but in your case, I'd suspect something like the TPS could be mal-adjusted, EGR, plug wires, etc. If it idles smooth though, (and you can test this by pulling individual plug wires while its running, and noting the stumble when its pulled, if no stumble, the cylinder is "dead" for some reason) I'd really look away from ignition being the problem, except the electronic timing aspect.

    If you had a lot of crap in the tank, I'd not rule that out either, but the pre-filter keeps quite a bit out.
     
  9. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Well I just replaced the fuel filter again (did it a few weeks ago)..I shook the old filter up and there was quite a bit of junk to come out of it..replaced it with the new one and took her out and beat the crap out of her and she did fine..will keep driving her to see what happens..thanks guys.
     
  10. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    well after driving her again today she started it again..not to the same extent that she was doing it though. I notice that when gunned she moves very well but when just driving in a normal fashion she does it. Notice that right when it happens the engine seems to drop her rpm very low..around 45mph it will just drop her rpm and then she will start to shake and surge..but i drop the gas peddle and she roars back to life. I think i will look into the cap/rotor...then take it from there
     
  11. tipoil

    tipoil 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    could it be the tcc that going crazy? check ur fuel filter again to see if it still full of crud
     
  12. Twiz

    Twiz 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    damn thing still drives but she shakes and rattles like crazy..at 85mph. When i stomp her, she goes..rough but goes..i take my foot off the gas and she does not run rough at all..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Try "power-brakeing" it and tell us what happens. (press hard on the brake pedal, while at the same time, increase the throttle.)

    This will put a very high demnand on the Ignition system. If a spark-plug, or plug-wire is shorting out to ground, this "test" will help. If the engine miss-fires during this test, does it "feel" repetitive? Like only one cylinder (or cylinders) isn't fireing. If this is the case, the miss-fire will be quick, but it will/should have a something close to a pattern. If the problem is ignition system related.

    With the same test. If it were fuel related, the miss-fire would/should be a bit more random (maybe, it deppends on how lean the A/F ratio getting to cylinders is). I would think, if it back-fires through the TBI during this test, I would suspect it might be fuel-related.

    It is very difficult to diag problems over the "net", so try to be as discriptive as you can (which you have been) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
    Include as much detail as you think applies to the problem, like engine load, throttle position, speeds, RPMs, ect...
    Anything that seems to be the sweet-spot.
     
  13. Twiz

    Twiz 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    Whoopsa'
    I didn't read the entire post, Disregared my reply above. (guess I must have run out of Mouse-pad)


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    I notice that when gunned she moves very well but when just driving in a normal fashion she does it. Notice that right when it happens the engine seems to drop her rpm very low..around 45mph it will just drop her rpm and then she will start to shake and surge..but[/i] i drop the gas peddle and she roars back to life.[/i]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    This sounds like it might be EGR related.
    The EGR system opperates during a cruise, not at idle or full-power.
     
  14. blwnbwtie

    blwnbwtie Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    well i had a similar problem in my 72 PU i changed the cam in it and it made it run a hell of a lot better, but the rest of the motor was still shot, maybe its just time for a rebuild? /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  15. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    the motor is strong. I dont know. Its really really really bad today. When she shifts from 2 to 3 and from 3 to 4 and from 4th to overdrive the rpm drops VERY low and then she shakes and shutters and jars...but I give it more gas and she clears up. I unplugged the EGR and plugged the tube up with a bolt and 200mph tape..same problem...I guess I will change the cap and plug..if that doesnt help I will have to take her into a shop. I just hate doing that, wish i could fix her myself
     
  16. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    just a quick question though. If she is not throwing codes, will the issue still register on a code scanner??
     
  17. RockyRider13

    RockyRider13 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I think she is dying

    There is a difference. There is the cheap code scanner that grounds the port under the steering wheel and the computer spits out what it THINKS is wrong, then there is the expensive scanner where it displays what the computer is thinking. An example is if the car is running like crap when it is cold out. There might not be any warning light because it is getting numbers, but if you hook up the scanner you might find that a sensor is telling the computer that it is 150 outside.
     
  18. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    *almost* sounds like TCC is locking up too early. Only question is the "more gas" statement.

    Do you mean its better if the vehicle speed (and thus engine) speed is higher, or just that if you floor it, it doesn't seem to have any problems.

    TCC is pretty easy to "test", crawl under the vehicle and unplug the electrical connector on the drivers side of the tranny. Go for a test drive. Problem gone? TCC/TCC circuit is messed up. Don't "test" this way for long, the tranny heats up, and we all know how much the 700 likes extra heat : )
     
  19. testosterone

    testosterone Registered Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    what I meant by more gas is this....when im driving normally the tranny shifts..when she upsifts the rpm's drop and thats when she starts to bog..(I get the worst feeling in my stomach when that happens too...I stress over stuff like this. My doc could tell me the worst news and it woudnt faze me, but this gets me stressed as can be)..ok..so when she starts to bog i mash down on the peddle and she clears right up and accelerates..Im running out of things to think of.I think im gonna have to give in and take her to a pro.
     
  20. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: I think she is dying

    You've adjusted the TV cable?

    Doesn't sound like TCC, but it wouldn't hurt to try unplugging it, way to hard to diagnose things over the 'net accurately all the time, and there have certainly been other problems that weren't apparent.
     

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