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If you have ever rebuilt your own SM465, post here......

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by FWP, Aug 7, 2003.

  1. FWP

    FWP CRS

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    Not your friend, or somebody you know built it, but YOU /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, post your experiences, I'm just curious if they're similar....

    If you do it for a living, I hope everyone reading this never messes with you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, for their sake /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. You have to have the strength of a weight lifter, and the touch of an auto tranny rebuilder /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif.

    My arms are still tired /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif from tearing that heavy SOB apart, and that was an hour ago, whew.........what a PITA, no wonder the shops get high dollar for rebuilding that monster.....And I thought ring and pinions were a pain, that's nothin' compared to this beast /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  2. Blazer1970

    Blazer1970 1/2 ton status

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    I have done it. The first time took a couple of days. I think I could do the next one in about 4 or 5 hours if I don't wait so long that I forget everything I learned.
     
  3. mdm365

    mdm365 1/2 ton status

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    I just did mine a few weeks ago.I had to replace the mainshaft and that gave me a reason to get a 12 ton press for the bushings /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gifIt is a heavy sob but I had to do it 2 times I ended up with a problem with the end play on the input shaft,got that fixed and now all is good I did have one heck of a time getting the bearings off and used a hand full of differant pullers with no luck.I did get them off another way.see what pics I got up so far at photo pageIll get the rest up this weekend.I also had to rebuild the shift tower had broken detent springs....good luck and dont rush things.. mike /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  4. Hossbaby50

    Hossbaby50 3/4 ton status

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    FortCollinsRam (Chris) has done it. He had one laying around in pieces along with the one he installed in his truck. You might PM him Fred.

    Harley
     
  5. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    Yeha, did mine! It was a good challange! I used a sears gear puller and a friends press... That's it! I will probably do it again! The 1/16th difference between bushing 2 and bushing 3 was a world of difference when putting 1st gear on! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  6. fortcollinsram

    fortcollinsram 1/2 ton status

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    yeah it isn't to bad...tearing it apart is the hardest oart by far...not too bad though...
    Chris
     
  7. tarussell

    tarussell 1/2 ton status

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    Those suckers are heavy ! The bushings are a pain to get off of the shaft but everything else is par for the coarse.
    I hope I do not ever have to go into the NVG 5600 in my Dodge ( it's almost twice as big as the 465 and don't look to light either ) .
    Did you replace the main shaft snap ring with a spacer to avoid the third gear pop out ? I have not replaced mine yet , because I don't have that problem , but I thought it would be a nice upgrade the next time I go through my 465.
    Tom
     
  8. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    I put a whole new 3rd gear and 3rd gear shift collar in... It has helical cut meshing teeth so it won't pop out! The bushings were a breeze, you just hit them about 3 times with a chisel from the side and split them down the side, they slide right off and then you press the new ones on... They're only made out of pewter! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  9. tarussell

    tarussell 1/2 ton status

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    Who makes the gear/collar combo ? Do you have any engagement problems or gear clash since using the upgrade gear ? Tom
     
  10. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    To be honest, I haven't ran the tranny yet! I rebuilt it with plans to go behind a 454 and then had to sell the engine.... I still have the tranny, it's my backup for when the 700 goes out, I did a search and there's a couple companies making them... My local drivetrain shop got it for me, i don't remember who made it though, Sorry! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  11. FWP

    FWP CRS

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Did you replace the main shaft snap ring with a spacer to avoid the third gear pop out ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have to look at that tomorrow, thanks for reminding me. I didn't have that problem, but I should look at that.

    I tore it down because I was having difficulty getting 2nd gear to engage. Found the 2nd gear syncro warped, not grabbing the cone when you push on it...
     
  12. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Did you replace the main shaft snap ring with a spacer to avoid the third gear pop out ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I do not believe that has anything to do with "third gear popout"
    unless the countergear is walking far enough to contact the shift fork and push it off the speed gear it is unrelated.
    worn shift forks is where I woud look for the "pop out" problem.
    if the shift clutch is fully engaged it will not cannot pop out

    could be wrong but that is my take
     
  13. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    The deal with the third gear pop out is that the collar teeth and the synchro gear teeth are cut on a strait cut, as the gears wear, the teeth get loose and the rotational force of the input shaft tries to push the shift collar back and off the synchro.... The only reason you have this problem in 3rd is cause of the speed at which the tranny is turning and the location of the gear in the shift pattern... 1st gear could potentially fo it as well, but the speed of the output shaft, not to mention the longevity of how long we use 1st, don't let it wear as mich or as quick to duplicate the severity of the problem....

    Also, Alot of people get hung up on the "3rd gear" part, on the shift patttern, 3rd gear is 2nd gear cause the 465 calls 1st low..... The gear that needs to be fixed is second on the shift pattern, but third in the tranny... It's the third gear in the tranny, but "2nd Gear"! Hope this helps.... By the way, I have never heard of a snap ring replacent that fixes this problem.... Not saying it's out there, but I don't see how a snap ring improves te grabing power of the shift collar....
     
  14. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    doesnt every tranny made have straight teeth on the shift collar etc.
    including all the other gears in the 465

    the snap ring they are refering to is the one that locates the 3rd cluster gear on the countershaft.
    so I agree that it should have no effect on the mainshaft shift clutches

    I would like to see pics of the shift forks of people that suffer this pop out problem.
    I am betting the plastic stuff is peeled off the fork and preventing them from getting full engagement much like when a np205 pops out or goes front wheel drive only.
    it is a linkage problem not an inherent design flaw IMO
     
  15. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    I agree, if it were inherent, every single 465 would do it, and that's not the case. Plenty of them with 20+ years and still going strong.

    One inherent problem I can think of is that the plastic coating on the shift forks is not replaceable, unlike many other manual trannies that use replaceable nylon(?) "bushings" on the forks. I believe even the 205 has replaceable bushings in it.

    Anyone got a source for all sorts of those different shift fork bushings? I'd like to get a few different styles and see if thats a modification that can't be done, instead of replacing the rails. Good thing with nylon (for instance) is that it's very easy to work with, so changing the thickness of the "pads" would be quick and easy.
     
  16. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    I think normal shift forks would be a good thing to make for these trannies
     
  17. Batmanjr

    Batmanjr 1/2 ton status

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    MJ,
    Try This.... Go drive the 465, feel the shifter... On every 465 I've ever driven which isn't a ton, but a good 3-4, you can feel how the tranny pushes the shifter to the rear of the truck.... When you are going down the road, leave the shifter in 2nd(1st on the knob), and accelerate and decelerate as though you were trying to make yourself sick... Stomp, let go, stomp, let go... The shifter will come loose, then tight against the rear of the tranny... Now shift into 3rd(2nd on the knob), as you accelerate, the shifter gets loose, but as you let off and the engine starts working like a brake, the shifter pushes towards the rear of the truck again.... As the synchros on the gear wear and the synchros on the collar wear, they sart poping out instead of staying in... It based on how the teeth are cut and how they wear... I believe it's cause they wear on one side as they engage over and over and then when they want to be use in reverse(engine braking) they tend to pop out.... I don't think the problem is helped by wear on the shift forks, but that's not the base of the problem...
     
  18. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    I do not agree with your conclusions

    syncros have nothing to do with whether the gear stays engaged,
    their job is done once the shift collar passes them and engages the speed gear

    what you may be feeling is the mainshaft endplay?? if it is the same in all gears

    IMO the snap ring replacement and 5deg cut speedgears are incorrect solutions for worn forks,
    the new speedgear might help if the partially engaged shiftclutch has worn a pattern into the origonal speedgear teeth
    again, that is my take YMMV

    niether of my 465s kicked out of any gear but both showed signs of wear on the shift forks
    once the nylon flakes off there is no way you can fully engage the speedgear with the shiftclutch

    one way to test theory is to get someone to shoot some pics of their tranny that exhibits 3rd gear popout with top cover removed.
    look for wear pattern on 3rd speed gear teeth and shift forks
    then simply replace shift fork and drop cover back on.
    that should be possible IN a truck with removeable tranny tunnel without dropping tranny
     
  19. tarussell

    tarussell 1/2 ton status

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    It was my understanding that the counter gear would/could walk far enough, due to the snap ring deflecting, to cause the shift collar to move enough to cause the pop-out problem. The spacer was used to eliminate the snap ring deflection. I have never used the spacer myself but I remember reading about it when I saw an article on early 465's that had a weaker ( I guess thinner ) snap ring that Muncie made a running change in production because of the potential gear walking problem .
     
  20. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    well that would be easy to prove.
    the shift collar would have witness marks, from the 3rd counter gear, in it that you would see with the cover off.
    anyone have or seen this?
    images would be cool
     

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