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I've been playing with different wrap bars --->

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by BorregoK5, Mar 13, 2003.

  1. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    I've been toying around will all kinds of wrap bars lately ... over the spring, under the spring, center mounted ladder style torque arms, etc. Each of them has their own benefits and drawbacks. Its been a big topic of conversation lately so I wanted to post some of the results I've been getting. Knowing that a kicker shock wasn't going to eliminate wrap but slow it down, I wanted to try it anyway. I made a spring plate with a shock mount and tied it forward into the ouside spring bolt. It was a rather slick install and did help slow wrap up, it felt best when launching or shifting but didn't do anything for wrap up that wasn't momentary, so I nix'd it. I tried running a solid bar in the same place just for kicks, I already knew what was going to happen so it wasn't a suprise when it exagerated the spring wrap, so I nix'd that too. I had already been playing with short bars located underneath the spring which worked well if only run on one side (both sides tend to compete with each other under full articulation) and had broken several of them at my chinsey pivot that allowed the bar to rotate freely. I decided to try out the ladder style torque arm which mounts centrally on the axle with a shackle at the opposite end. I really liked the center mounted torque arm but it promotes a bit of wheel hop when braking (especially steep descents) and required a lot of exhaust re-routing (I just uncorked it for the test - way loud!)and installation was a big time pain. I decided to return to my side mounted bars after my soft 57's axle locating properties under full articulation came into question on the last trip. I didn't want to have to run both the side bars to locate the axle and the center torque bar... I might as well go 4 link... but thats another story. Anyway, I built a set of trac-bars running forward to both control axle wrap and locate my axles under articulation. I knew what to expect from my shorter version and was hoping that the length of the bars and the resulting arc of travel at the axle end would work out better. The results were stunning. I did loose a little ground clearance which was the downfall but what I gained has made it worth it, again, the desert influence shined through. Not only did it control wrap as good as the torque bar, but it didn't promote as much braking hop (not exactly sure why though, it should have been the same). It also acts as an axle locator and best of all, it eliminated almost all of my anti-squat (that was a suprise). Road manners are great and the truck launches flat now, shifting is great and isn't as pronounced and best of all it was a snap to install. Off raod was an obvious improvement, the bar saw much less stress now that it was longer and articulation was the same. I was able to climb further up a few hills that usually got me bouncing long before I reached the top, now i just dug in at the top. I included some pics so others can take from it what they will. I used a large 1 1/4" bolt at the front end which allows full rotation of the bars and didn't sacrifice strength. I wanted to avoid costly heims or johnny joints and stay bushings.
    [​IMG]
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  2. juanblzer

    juanblzer 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    pretty cool...
    any plans to sell a kit?
    May be interested.
     
  3. XtrmChevy

    XtrmChevy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    I used the drag link and it works ok.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Juanblzer - No plans to sell it yet, I'm just experimenting with whats possible with the stock frame. I managed to bend the bar today at at the bend nearest the frame. I dropped into 2 Low uphill on asphault and punched it from a stop. I spun the 38's for a second and then when it hooked up, the back jumped up on me (try that with a stock driveshaft). I should have added gussets to the bends. I'm going to try it again with a straight bar now that I know how much clearance I have at full stuff from the spring hanger. I might sleeve some 1 1/4" tubing inside the 1 1/2" tubing as well. Once I get it right, I'll pull it off and run the same inside the frame rails.

    Using a draglink from the cab to the spring plate on a front dana 60 is an interesting idea to control wrap on stock to medium flex front ends that I hadn't thought about.
     
  5. K5thatShmobs

    K5thatShmobs 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Pretty sweet Matt... Im building my own this weekend. What kind of ends did you use?
     
  6. supersize75

    supersize75 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    can you get a better pic, I have 2 spare drag links and lots of time /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  7. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    I used 1 3/4" poly bushings at each end. On the frame end I used a 1 1/4" bolt mig'd to a bushing sleeve, nut mig'd to the tubing. This allows a full 360 degree rotation and about 3" of adjustability. You can drill the nut for a zirk as well to keep it rotating freely.
     
  8. Triaged

    Triaged 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Looks good. I never liked the idea of bent (pre-buckled ) links. I bet the reduction in anti-squat had as much to do with the better handling as the reduction of wrap.

    Do you think a link like that under the pinion would work? Would be cool to not have to worry about your driveshaft.

    So you'll have it linked by summer?
     
  9. Chris Demartini

    Chris Demartini 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    <font color="blue">I found this setup while searching around on a Jeep site. I dont know how effective this will be throughout the arch of movement of the axle (looks like the shackle part would have to be pretty much straight for it to work), but it looks interesting

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here's the rest http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/
     
  10. XtrmChevy

    XtrmChevy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Yes I can, will do it tomorrow, and it is on the 14FF, not the front /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  11. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Triaged - Yes, running the bars anywhere under the centerline of the axle shaft should work fine from what I've experienced. I chose to run on the edges in order to locate the axle as well(which a centrally mounted bar does not do) to relieve the springs of having to perform this same task when they are arched under droop and vulnerable to torque loads. Having beams running from the bottom of the dif to the bottom of the t-case would be kinda slick though if you kept the stock springs in their place, linking a 4-link like that would create some funky geometry. I would guess I'll be linked by the end of summer, I'm not going link though without the full tube chassis... or at least truggy to keep it street legal.

    Chris Demartini - That design would work well with a stiff short leaf pack or in conjunction with some type of lower beams. When you add any resisting force above the center line of the axle and forward to a stock Hotchkiss style suspension, the rotational force the axle sees under accelleration will stretch at the top beam and compress on the bottom beam. In the case of the bar you have shown above, the bottom beam would be the leaf spring and would cause a long soft spring to bow, or wrap, especially on a heavy vehicle with a lot of power. In the case of a light jeep, the shorter spring would do better than our full size trucks and the reduction in weight would probably see more tire spin than wrap. Adding solid bars above the axle is best accompanied by adding them below as well, where as you can get away with having them below and not above because the rotational force tries to stretch, not collopse the top link, or in this case, your leaf spring.
     
  12. KRAZIE87K5

    KRAZIE87K5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    I love these threads! I don't mean to sound like a prick who just wants an answer, but I am willing to test ANYTHING you have on my truck... I have some money in hand, and can tell you that with the 1-ton gear and the 454 behind a standard trans, I have MASSIVE WRAP ISSUES.

    I know you have a pretty decent test bed yourself, but if you get close and want some help testing - drop me a PM. Maybe we can work something out? /forums/images/graemlins/1zhelp.gif

    Do you have any plans to sell a solution in the near future? Let us know! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    -Dan
     
  13. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    If anyone has more wrap than I do, it would be you. If I can't break the bar, I might send it over your way and see if you can break it! I've got someone egging me to make a chromoly one - an expensive aproach... but...
     
  14. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Hey, you wanna talk wrap, I'll be none of you can touch my reversed 57" F150s with springer arms on the back! LOL /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif
     
  15. XtrmChevy

    XtrmChevy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Ok maybe a little better view this time:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    have you acctually tried this out? it looks like a he11of an idea, cheap too. but, it seems like when you flex it the driveline angles would get worse. do you have one on each side?
     
  17. XtrmChevy

    XtrmChevy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Yes I have tried it. Standing on the brakes in rwd it lifts the rear maybe 1-2". It do not twist the springs at all. It is only on the drivers side, I do not think it is good to put them on both. I am not positive about the driveline angles but as it is angeled, a little down to the axle, when it droops the wheel is moving forward a little when the spring arcs and when compressing the spring flattens out and the bar gets level with the ground so there should not be much torsions(sp).

    At least it do not limit flex much
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  18. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Nice flex! That truck is looking rather potent!

    I rebuilt my bars, no bends this time, and sleeved the tubing so its twice as thick. I made a new mounting position that sits lower on the frame with a generic bracket and reused the U-Bolt bracket mount. I tried bending this one using my same asphault 4 low spin-out, as well as some flexing and dragging accross a few big rocks (which was harder because this one sits a little higher) Anyway, I like it. I also made a generic frame mount which places the bars inside the frame rails and up much higher. I cant remember where my stock 14 bolt shock mounts were though, so I'm mounting them on the tubes anyhow next to the spring perch.
    [​IMG]
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  19. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    So, are you happy with it now? Do you think this is getting close to your final "favorite" solution (short of fully linked which I'm looking at too)...
     
  20. RustBuket

    RustBuket 1/2 ton status

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    Re: I\'ve been playing with different wrap bars --->

    Wow, you guys think up some smart stuff! With that drag link though, wouldn't it force the axle to wrap up a bit as it moved through its arc? I guess it would probably better to have a little better of controled wrap versus huge amounts on take off.
     

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