Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

King Coilovers....Horizontal mounting???

Discussion in 'Center Of Gravity' started by Greg72, Apr 1, 2005.

  1. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Posts:
    15,681
    Likes Received:
    1,392
    Location:
    642 Days to BB2018
    Well I still haven't figured out if the 2.5" Coilovers are considered "Race" or "PreRunner" but either way a 16" travel shock is something like 35.25" eye-to-eye at mid travel!!! :yikes: Say goodbye to a rear seat with a shock THAT long.... :D

    So I was thinking about laying them down horizontally (at least on the rear 4-link) and using some sort of "dogleg pivot" (not sure what it's called, kinda like a boomerang shape?) to actuate the shock.

    I know open-wheel cars use some sort of similar technique, and I have to believe that someone has already done it on a 4x4... Does anyone know if the Kings can be operated horizontally??? The story ends right there if they can't.

    My guess is that if you want 8" of stroke at the shock, the dogleg had better have at least 8" of spacing between the pivot point and the shock mounting point....correct?
     
  2. willyswanter

    willyswanter 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2000
    Posts:
    2,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bakersfield, CA
    What your building is a cantilever setup. Alot of monster trucks run this in the rear. Also, by changing the lever arm lengths in relation to each other you can gain more wheel travel than you have shock travel. Such as if you have an 8" stroke shock you can give a arm ratio of 2:1 and get 16" of travel at the wheel, but you will need 2x heavier coil rates.
     
  3. jrpeebles

    jrpeebles Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Posts:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Hollywood Ca.
    Search on a site called Dezertrangers.com.There are photos of an Explorer with a cantilever shock setup, and several other vehicles with this setup.
     
  4. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Posts:
    15,681
    Likes Received:
    1,392
    Location:
    642 Days to BB2018
    Can you get me any closer to the pics? I've spent about 2 hours looking around (awesome fab work on that site!) but haven't seen the Explorer pics yet.

    Went through the 41-page "What's up with your rig" post though..... :cool1:
     
  5. jrpeebles

    jrpeebles Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Posts:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Hollywood Ca.
    I think if you search for the Explorer built by Matt Walrath,something should come up.Also,you might want to check out race-dezert.com - there's alot of interesting stuff there.
     
  6. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Posts:
    15,681
    Likes Received:
    1,392
    Location:
    642 Days to BB2018
    Found them.......

    [​IMG]

    Absolutely phenomenal build-quality.....I am in awe!!! :saweet:

    Any reasoning behind using a shorter stroke shock and a longer "ratio" on the canteliever vs. using a 1:1 ratio canteliever and the longest shock available???

    It would seem that you'd lose responsiveness of the damper if you tried to use too high of a ratio on the arm (like 5:1 for example) the shock would barely move even though the suspension was cycling massively...... There must be some point of diminishing returns with that canteliever arm......???

    Still, it is UBER-cool and I'm convinced I want to incorporate that style of mount on the rear suspension to save bed space..... :thumb:
     
  7. PJTPW

    PJTPW 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Posts:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Moab, Utah
    Food for though:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Torsion bars for height, bypass, and air bumps for dampening.

    Ryan
     
  8. bgreen

    bgreen 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Posts:
    167
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Alaska
    do it. Im considering the same thing. You try it, get it done in the next two days, then let me know you you like it :D
     
  9. big pappa b

    big pappa b 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Posts:
    6,328
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Falcon, Colorado
    Oh mommy...daddy likey :D
     
  10. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2001
    Posts:
    15,681
    Likes Received:
    1,392
    Location:
    642 Days to BB2018
    Well sure....except that I'm building it in 1/4-scale and out of balsa wood...

    Lightweight chassis should be really easy on the drivetrain!!! :grin:


    Oh yes, and that last set of pics is freakishly complex looking.... and COOL!
     
  11. k5james

    k5james 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Posts:
    792
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Greg, there was a thread about this a while ago on race-dezert.com. They were talking about a Mezzanine arm setup for the rear of a burb. Here's the thread

    http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12739

    Lot's of good info and pics.

    You could also just move your rear seat forward like I did to allow room for shocks. Moving the seat forward makes it a little tight but there's still enough leg room back there for an average sized person.
     
  12. ntsqd

    ntsqd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2002
    Posts:
    3,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    So. CA
    Greg,
    A "Motion Ratio" of 1:1 is the ideal for high speed use. Frequently can't be done though. You're right, the greater the ratio, the harder it is to get the damping right. Also, consider that with a rocker arm the ratio is not fixed, it is changing as the suspension cycles. The leverage distance is always calc'd as the perpendicular distance from the CL of the op rod or the damper shaft to the pivot point. The greater the Motion Ratio, the greater the amount of ratio change. That makes tuning the damper rates REAL interesting.

    For simplicity the rocker arm would have equal lengths to each lever and each side would start from the same angle of op-rod/shaft to lever so that the ratio stays the same even though the lever length is changing. Easy to say, really tough to do. Damping wants a ratio range that starts fast at full droop and progressively gets slower towards full bump. Or so I think at this point.

    Those last pics are of some very tricky by-pass dampers. The reservoirs have check valves so that the fluid cycles out one end and in the other. I think it was Brian Kudela who designed that truck. He is the Engineer who designed the McPherson Chevrolet trucks ("Big Mac" & "Little Mac"). Search "Light Racing" to find more on him. He's located in the unlikely place of Cathy's Valley, CA.
     
  13. zcarczar

    zcarczar 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Posts:
    2,495
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Apple Valley California
    Hey greg I figured out what the difference between the two is. I just ordered some 16" travel "Prerunner" Kings for my blazer and the main difference is in the seals, or so im told. The "Race" series are designed to take heat a lot more heat, hence they are called "Race" series, and the seals do not have the life of the "Pre-runner" series. The "race" series are supposed to be rebuilt after every race too. There is also a big price difference. Needless to say I went with the "Pre-runner" series since I dont plan on racing this truck and they were already expensive enough. After taxes out the door and everything the two shocks which were threaded body, but no hardware was $810. :blush:
     
  14. jrpeebles

    jrpeebles Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Posts:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Hollywood Ca.
    I believe there is also a difference in the material used for the shafts.The Prerunner series will have more of a tendency to nick than the "race" series.
     
  15. PJTPW

    PJTPW 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Posts:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Moab, Utah
    Some more info from the King site:

    Pure Race Shocks
    1. Cylinder bores are all precision honed to +/-. 001 tolerance with a mirror surface finish of at least 16RMS (other shocks are approximately 8-10 RMS). King hones out the bores to make them precision round, while most other manufacturers will not. Want proof? Ask other shock companies about their bores, they might tell you that a "go no go" gauge was put through them to check for precision. Honing is very expensive; King takes the time to ensure customer satisfaction and product quality.

    2. The rod end is made from an aircraft aluminum alloy 7075 cold extruded for pure strength. Since the rod end gets a lot of reciprocating loads it is very important that this part be able to withstand extreme abuse. King Shock pistons are also made from 7075 because this alloy has less heat expansion at higher temperatures. On any shock the piston and valving components become the hottest part on a shock due to energy transfer from the shock absorbtion process.

    3. The shaft is made from high carbon steel that has been induction hardened 0.040 deep to Rockwell Rc55-60 to prevent rock bruising. Which essentially makes the shaft almost as hard as a file. The 1" (25.4mm) shaft is connected to the rod end with a heat treated stainless steel 17-4 piece so that the shaft will never break at the first thread. Shafts are micro polished to a surface finish of 2-4 RMS. King Shock shafts are known to be some of the industries best.

    4. King seals are all high temperature viton with the wiper seal being machined in-house. Each wiper seal is made out of a high temperature carbon composite material. It takes special in-house diamond tooling to machine our wiper seals to the strictest tolerences.

    5. The piston is made from aluminum alloy 7075 with a unique design to stop valving from malfunctioning.

    6. The valving is designed for high temperature operation by losing very little of its strength at high temperatures. As a heat treated stainless this ensures King Shocks will perform under the most grueling conditions.

    7. The reservoir has an outer diameter of 2 3/4" and is about 15" long. Each reservoir's shell is made from a hard-coated aluminum for weight savings and heat dissipation. Each shocks fill valve is able to withstand high temperature and pressure and has a very unique cover. These unique covers double seal the gas and protect it from rocks and other elements.

    8. Spherical bearings are all large Teflon lined stainless bearings. 3/4" bearings are used for our 3" shocks while 5/8" bearings are used for the 2 1/2" and 2" shocks.

    9. King Shocks bypass tubes are very well constructed to ensure maximum flow and ideal ride. This allows our shocks to run heavy valving for bottom-out control while maintaining enough flow in the tubes so shocks are soft at ride height. The size of the check valve spring is large so the stress level is low increasing endurance. Check valves are machined from heat treated 17-4 stainless steel for pure strength (200,000 tensile). Each cylinder is plated after the tube is TIG welded resulting in an attractive finish.

    10. King Shocks has the most complete product line of shocks for race trucks, cars, quads and every specialty application. We can help you determine which is the best setup for your vehicle. King Shocks offers 2", 2 1/2", 3" and 4" diameter shocks. All shocks are assembled to order.
     
  16. Thuren

    Thuren Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Posts:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    EIGHT ZERO FIVE
    I think the main question has been answered regarding mounting the shocks horizontal, but I had something to add about the "advantage" to the whole leverage ratio thing.. :)

    Adavantages...
    The wheel can effectively move faster and more responsive because the friction in the shock(seals,nitrogen pressure, valving restrictions, piston flow, etc.) is reduced by the leverage ratio at the wheel.... The truck will be able to suck up the small stuff and fast hits easier....

    Disadvantages....
    Valving... The leverage effect goes both ways, so now, the shock is going to have a harder time controlling the wheel. With leafs you will be able to run standard light compression valving and have a GREAT ride but if you don't stiffen up the rebound it's gonna feel like your riding a pogo stick... With any serious leverage ratio and leaf springs the rebound valving is going to have to be stiffened up WAY off the standard scale.... It can be done to work sweet though... :D

    Don
     
  17. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2000
    Posts:
    4,389
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    PA
    I don't know what the automotive industry calls that, but in aviation it's a "bellcrank". Used in push/pull rod-type linkage systems to turn the control path around a corner.
     
  18. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2000
    Posts:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Carbondale Colorado
    On a fast racer the wheel cycle speeds can get super fast and leveraging the shock cuts down on shaft velocity. I've heard of 200in/sec wheel speeds.

    Here in our real world, that doesn't happen.

    Greg, this has potential to get very complicated, take a look at some pics of my K5 and brandon's buggy, with the c/o behind the axle, you have a good chance of missing the back seat. You will lose some interior room but it's not as bad as it could be. Also take a look at a later K5's floor pan. My '82 has a ledge in the floor so the passenger's legs go down instead of straight out so there's more room behind the rear seat. Maybe you could mess with the floor easier than trying to fit the suspension under it.
     

Share This Page