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Larry Miller on the Middle East

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by FL84K5, Oct 7, 2002.

  1. FL84K5

    FL84K5 1/2 ton status

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    From Larry Miller:

    "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

    The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew- Haters."


    Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew- Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the real fun is-but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel-or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it-for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

    Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

    My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

    Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought,yeah, horrible.)"
     
  2. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    Interesting article.

    Larry Miller got a lot of heat when he published this one, especially since he is Jewish.


    It seems pretty straightforward to me.
     
  3. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Now I can understand how those Arabs think and do stuff over there now. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    This Larry Miller dude translated this to make it easier for stupid people, like me, in layman terms. I never thought of the way Mr. Miller interpreted it before. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  4. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    yeah, that's pretty tidy, isn't it?
    nice way to simplify the centuries of religious hatred, by saying that palestinians don't exist. stupid people, getting bulldozed off their land, they're not even real!
     
  5. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    Napolean's invasion of Egypt and Palestine in 1798 weakened the Ottoman
    Empire (Turks) and ushered in trade liberalization, privitization of communal land, and opened up immigration to jewish and christian colonists. In 1916, Britian and France split control of the region, after bringing a substantial end to Ottoman control. The political factions of today formed during the resistence against British Rule, especially for Iraq, Palestine, and Egypt.
    Islamic fundamentalism, pan-Arab nationalism, Arab socialism or secularism all started here, and the "Palestinian Issue" became a key ralleying point throughout the Arabic speaking world.
    In 1920, the sudden arrival of 10,000 Jewish immigrants set off panic and riots while the Palestinian economy was slowly de-developed (or put under arrested development). Protests and riots by Palestinsians, and small-scale massacres by both Palestinians and Jewish settlers ensued. The Nazis came to power in the 1930s in Germany and immigation to Palestine increased; the United States turned away boats of Jewish immigrants fleeing Germany despite
    public knowledge and intelligence of the Holocaust; support for Mussilini and Hitler was strong at times in the US during the 1930s. High taxes imposed by Britian increased the impoverishment of Palestinians.
    1936 to 1939 was a key period. "The Ikhwan al-Qassam [an Islamic fundamentalist group], killing of two jews in a bus ambush on April 15, 1936, triggered a retaliation by a jewish militia, the Haganah, who murdered two Palestinians.
    Counterattacks and further killings in Jaffa led the British to declare a state of emergency." Then Palestinians started a general strike of 6 months (the first collective non-violent civil disobidience), and an armed insurrection which included the assassination of a British district
    commisioner. The British Army (including war planes) attacked Palestinians and defeated them by 1939; the British put Palestinian organizers into prisons, concentration camps, or exile; and they cracked down on the strike and began censorship. In 1941 the British authorized the Zionist underground terrorist militia, the Irgun Z'Vai Leumi, to assassinate a Palesitnina leader in Iraq; but during a 1945-1947 Zionist revolt against British rule, the same Zionist group, blew up the British headquarters, killing 91 British; British control rapidly eroded.
    United Nations Resolution 181 calls for the partition of Palestine in 1947 and established the state of Israel.
    Al-Nakbah (1948): Zionist militas expel Palestininas into Jordon, Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank, leaving over 400
    razed villages and 840,000 refugees, including 200,000 to Gaza and 360,000 into the West Bank--90,000 remaining; they killed 15,000 Palestinains. The Arab League sent troops into Palestine; the Arab forces were defeated; the
    future Egyption revolutionary leader, Gamal Abdel Nasser was hurt during the war. Egypt ended up with control of Gaza and Jordon, the West Bank; Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal (and stopped Israeli ships) in 1956 setting off a major oil crises; Israel invaded (with help from France and Britian) taking the Suez Canal, the Sinai penninsula, and Gaza. In 1957, Israel began to get arms from the US and a regional arms race followed. The UN returned Sinai, Gaza, and Suez Canal to Egypt, and Isreal moved it's ships through again.
    The Palestinain Liberation Organization was founded in 1964. In 1967, Nasser banned Israeli ships from entering the Suez Canal, and Israel attacks Arab countries, winning East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Golan Heights (in Syria), Sinai, and Gaza; 400,000 Palestinians were expelled from Gaza and the West Bank. In 1970, the PLO was driven out of Jordon to Lebanon after Black September when King Hussain used his military to attack Palestinian refugee camps, killing thousands, and occuping the camps--Palestinians are second class citizens through the dispora.
    In 1973, Egypt and Syria invade Israel but Israel almost takes Damascus and loses no territory; the Arab oil embargo begins and the US accelearates its involvement. In 1978 Israel invades lebanon in retaliation for a PLO guerrilla raid, following 6,200 aggressive actions agaisnt the PLO in lebanon from 1968 to 1975. In 1979 Egypt's President Anwar Sadat makes peace with Isarel and gets the Sinai back while Israel gains access to Suez Canal and the right to trade with and invest in Egypt; Palestinian talks that were part
    of the agreement were ignored by Israel; Egypt is expelled from the Arab league for the agreement, and Sadat is assassinated. Egypt and Israel begin receiving annual payments from the US of hundreds of millions of dollars
    each. Without an Egyptian military threat, Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to stop PLO attacks under the leadership of Ariel Sharon--the immediate cause was a failed assassination atempt against the Israeli ambassador to to
    London. 11,000 PLO expelled from Lebanon and go to Tunisia. In 1982, an Israeli ally, the (Christian) Phalange Militia (a Nazi party founded in 1939) massacred thousands of Palestinians in camps guarded and lit with floodlights
    by the Israeli army; an Isareli commission implicated Ariel Sharon in the massacres. Americans send Marines to Lebanon; the Israeli military headquarters in Tyre is blown up; and a suicide bomber blows up the US embassy in Beirut. The US pulls out in 1983 after two suicide bombers simultaneously explode the Marine base and the French Army base, killing hundreds; the Israeli military headquarters in Tyre is blown up again. In Tyre, a car bombing kills 80 Shia Muslims, and the CIA is involved in bombing bringing many more suicide bombings against Israelis in Lebanon. In 1986 hundred of palestians die in camps besieged by Shia Muslim militias and Syrians. PLO leader Abu Jihad (Khalil al-Wazir) is assassinated by Israeli comandos in Tunis, April 16th, 1988.
    On December 8th, 1987 in Gaza, a tank destroys a car killing 4 palestinians, the funeral of 6,000 Palestinains turned into days of demonstrations, and was repressed by a surprized Israeli military. From 1987 through 1993: Israel killed 1,283 palestinians in occupied palestine, and injured 130,472, destroyed 2,533 homes, deported 481, detained 22,088 without trial (many of them tortured), arrested over 90,000, seized 116,918 acres, uprooted 184,257 trees, and imposed 14,997 curfews. In 1988, Hamas was created to fight secularsim and Zionism. The 1991 Gulf War induced the US to work (or appear to work) for some sort of peace for Palestine in order to build a coalition against Iraq with Arab states. The PLO and Jordon did not
    join the coaltion; thus, Kuwait (with the help of vigilantes, militias, and the army) expelled 400,000 Palestinians, many of them killed, maimed or tortured. Iraq tried to drag Israel into the Gulf War, by attacking Israel
    with missles. After the Gulf War, the intifada waned, in part due to Israeli oppression and economic isolation from both Israel and the Arab Gulf states; but also in part due to the US brokered peace talks with (only high level) Palestinians. 1993 Oslo Peace accords brought Yasser Arafat and the PLO to Palestine to operate the Palestinian Authority (PA); the agreement postponed discussion of the right of return of 4.0 million Palestinains for3 years.
    To protest a peace agreement with no right of return, in 1995, Libya expelled most of its Palesinians, where they sat on the Egyptian border, or in ports in Cyprus until allowed to go to Syria or back to Libya. The hopes of the
    1993 peace process ended the intifida; but protest against Israel and also the Israeli empowered PLO. Yitzak Rabin was assassinated in 1996 for the Oslo agreement. Hezbollah resistance eventually forced Israel out of southern Lebanon in 2000; Hezbollah is the most influential political faction in Lebanon today. In 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected to be Prime Minister of Israel, soon after he visited the Dome of the Rock (or Temple Mount) in Jerusalem with 1,000 armed Israeli soldiers--this set off the current Intfada. Israeli deaths during the first year are about 390, while Palestinian deaths are about 690.
     
  6. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    Considering that all of that information was copied from a post on the website of Independent Media (a group of wierdo's that got together during the WTO protests here in Seattle a few years ago) I am immediately suspect of the information.

    After reviewing a few of the statements and (incorrect) dates in that post contains inaccurate and misleading information.

    However, I would be interested in hearing YOUR opinion.


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  7. uglychevyZZ4

    uglychevyZZ4 3/4 ton status

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    There ya go again goober, puttin the schiZ-makk down /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  8. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  9. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    mmm, wasn't his original post a copy as well?
    but that's ok?

    my opinion is that this is a war for oil. period.
    we need to let the heathens settle it, and if we hadn't backed isreal through every-freakin-thing they did, WTC wouldn't have happened.
    that is my opinion, and the post i copied laid it out nicely. just because you don't agree with speaking out against your president's vile need to corral more power, doesn't make the information wrong.
    and why on earth are they weirdos? because they don't think like you?
     
  10. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    and puhlease, is that really a schiZ-makk down?
     
  11. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    mmm, wasn't his original post a copy as well?


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Not as far as I can tell. Actually, the original post was made by a character who calls himself Thatcher on 1 April 2002. He was quoting himself in the link I posted earlier. Unless he posted it without crediting the original author, it appears as though he wrote it himself. But it really doesn't matter, it's still inaccurate no matter who wrote it. (was it you?)


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    my opinion is that this is a war for oil. period.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    My opinion is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Period. How in the world is it about oil?


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    we need to let the heathens settle it, and if we hadn't backed isreal through every-freakin-thing they did, WTC wouldn't have happened.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    So, what you are saying is that we were attacked because the US is on good terms with Isreal? That's not what we have heard from the folks who planned and ultimately attacked us. Do you know something that we don't?

    We don't back everything Isreal does. We have never backed them in everything they want to do, and I think it sorta pisses them off.

    I bet you aren't Jewish, are you?


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    the post i copied laid it out nicely

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Sure, it did lay it out nicely. It really doesn't matter that the dates are wrong, the presumed power structures are based on personal opinion rather than facts and the fact that it is obviously anti-semetic, one sided and inaccurate doesn't matter either.

    Thats OK, everyone is entitled to their opinion in America. That's what makes this such a great country. But when those opinions are based on inaccurate and misleading information, somebody needs to call a spade a spade. That post is a Spade, metaphorically speaking.


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    just because you don't agree with speaking out against your president's vile need to corral more power, doesn't make the information wrong.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    What?!? How would you know if I don't speak out against my President (just a reminder, he is your President also, if you are a citizen of the USA. Are you?) ? How would you have any idea about my thoughts about this President or any of his current actions? Did I say anything about the President?

    Oh ...... I get it. /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gifThat was a flame, right? /forums/images/graemlins/angryfire.gif

    That's cute, do you feel better now?


    I called the information wrong because it was incorrect.



    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    why on earth are they weirdos? because they don't think like you?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    No, I call them weirdo’s because they are .... well ... weirdo’s!





    And finally, YES , Those pants do make your butt look big.

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  12. ChevyHuny

    ChevyHuny 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    my opinion is that this is a war for oil. period.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    LMAO mmmkay /forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif
     
  13. delta9blazer

    delta9blazer 1/2 ton status

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    this is an article by mark morford. he is much more eloquent than i, but to me makes sense.

    Plethoric and growing like a ConAgra heifer on BGH are the numbers of giddy Republicans applauding Bush's every oil-drunk Cheney-led move, glad handing each other and lighting each others' stubby Cohibas and gloating about how this sure is the best of times, strike up the band and launch some missiles and let's do some oily good under God, Inc.

    And according to the polls, this ruddy, trigger-happy bunch apparently represents a very large segment of the American populace.

    It claims to speak for many of the deeply and patriotically misguided as they wave their flags and blindly support Geedubya and ignore the appalled international reaction, the horrifying shift from relative global steadiness and cooperation to interminable uproar and aggression.

    Sincerely and heartbreakingly do these proto-Americans cheer on our baffled troops, wherever they might be and whatever innocent wedding party they might be accidentally exterminating and whatever rusty broken-down 1972-era Iraqi tank they intend to annihilate real soon. Go git 'em boys.


    And just across the aisle like a quivering mass of timid gelatin sits an emasculated and depressingly large cadre of spineless Democrats, shoulders slumped and looking at their shoes, trying to remain viable and appropriately zealous and pro-America as they toe the line.

    Whimpering and fidgeting and apparently just as dumbly war-bent, not daring to speak out against the imminent hostilities, the choleric anti-Saddam frenzy, given how the nasty PR ramifications of a congressional "no" vote on Bush's little pet oil project are just too onerous and politically suicidal in this climate of all-American pre-emptive unprovoked vigilante ultraviolence.

    And these jumpy, tremulous Democrats apparently speak for a great many as well, reluctant supporters and turn-the-other-cheek nailbiters and even Tom Daschle fumbling on the defensive ("We do too care about the safety of the American people, darn it! When do we start bombing?")

    In a cracked nutshell, here is what happened: Dubya finally agreed to ask for congressional approval to launch his dad's grumpy unfinished war and then Cheney had his flying monkeys orchestrate it so anyone who voted "no" would have their political genitalia handed to them in a Dixie cup by Ashcroftian goons and/or an very perturbed-looking Jenna. Consensus is a beautiful thing, especially when it's ramrodded down the nation's throat.

    Only a few meek and negligible mainstream voices seem to be pointing out how this superfluous war will in fact provoke more violence and hatred, will inspire a thousand more bilious terrorist cells and destabilize the entire region and urge that evil Saddam to launch biological weapons on Israel.

    And no one at all is suggesting that forcing through this war and becoming a pre-emptive first-strike nation is a horrific and perilous and deeply, politically harmful path and, you know, maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't. Shhh. There is no such debate. The bottom line is clear as money: You are either with Bush on Iraq or you are a traitorous slug who should be politically and morally castrated. Thanks Rummy!

    No nuance approach, no war-only-as-absolute-last-resort integrity, no genuine debate. Just 9/11 as leverage for the new model of compassionate crypto-fascism; the war machine is churning, your voice does not really matter.

    Too harsh? Just look: There is no one of any significant voice in Congress, no top Bush adviser, no vociferous Independent, no major media outlet or celebrity pundit or influential foreign leader anywhere -- put your hand down, Gerhard -- speaking for the huge contingent who are right this minute scream-sighing: Wait wait wait, are we insane? What the hell are we doing? What is wrong with you people?

    This is the feeling. This is the overall sentiment. Monumental frustration battling it out with -- and ultimately giving way to -- overwhelming resignation and sadness at the shocking lack of discussion or debate over war with Iraq, no dissent allowed, no one speaking for the enormous numbers of highly patriotic and peace-oriented, observant Americans who are lamenting, Oh dear God, what are we about to do, and who do we think we are.

    And why the hell are we about to declare war on this worthless little country that poses no imminent threat to the U.S. and had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 and hasn't had much of a working army in over a decade and whose military couldn't hit the side of a temple with a spitball?

    This is the collective understanding, the message delivered from on high: It is pointless to call your senator. Angry letters won't work. Extreme-toned slightly embittered underpunctuated columns that point out just how fractured and apathetic and frustrated much of the nation has become, are largely futile.

    The roar of the war machine has drowned out all dissent. The beating of the drum has defeated the voices of protest and reason and even outrage.

    And you are left only with the frustrated and increasingly obvious notion that the country is being led further down the road of orchestrated self-destruction and casual despotism by a team of smirking politicized demons of greed and oil and power. It feels like a cartoon. It seems like a joke. Except for the part about the rage and the blood and the dead children and Dick Cheney thumping his chest like an angry gorilla, and hacking up a Duracell.

    And all you can do is bow your head and pray to your non-self-righteous deity, try to blaspheme the gods of war as vociferously as you possibly can, work to disallow the frantic political screeching and oversimplified Good vs. Evil posturing from violating your better reason and molesting your honest patriotism and permanently soiling your soul.

    Maybe this is all you can do right now. You just close your eyes, and exhale, and abide.
     
  14. Goober

    Goober 1/2 ton status

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    BUMMER

    Why did you delete your previous post?

    You actually posted a response that laid out your own views (very well written, I might add) and then deleted it in favor of posting this drivel from a rabid ultra-left-wing shock-jock from San Francisco?

    This Mark Morford guy makes Ted Kennedy look like Rush Limbaugh's best buddy!


    One of the things you stated (in your deleted post) was that was that I was giving you a hard time for posting copied material when, in reality, I only objected to the inaccuracies and misleading portions of the information posted. You can copy anything you want but I would rather hear what you think.


    Obviously, there are lots of folks publishing what they believe to be "the truth" about the problems in the middle east. It's all opinion. So, let's look at some facts as I see them:

    There are MILLIONS of sources of information on the history of this area. The President, and others, constantly refer to The United Nations as the source of our authority to use military force in Iraq. The reason for this is very simple. After Iraq had their butts handed to them on a platter, they signed an agreement that says that (among other things) if they don't stop developing weapons of mass destruction, then the UN can come in and kick their butt again. After the UN inspectors found all sorts of development facilities they were told by Iraq that they could no longer perform their inspections (1998). Since that time, The United Nations, President Clinton and President Bush have tried different things to get them to comply with their agreement but they still won't cooperate. Since the only alternative is for the UN to fulfill their part of the agreement, it looks like they (the UN) is going to have to go perform those inspections by force. Since the United States has the only military in the world that has the ability to stand up to this goofball, we will provide a majority of the resources that the UN will use.

    Now, if the UN does not take action to enforce the binding agreements that they put together (because they are actually just a bunch of spineless weenies) the it is our responsability to gather our friends together and go over to this guys house, bust down the door and kick his butt.

    Thats how I feel about Iraq.

    I still don't understand the connection that Israel has in this deal but here are a few links to some information that I believe is accurate:

    United Nations - History of Israel

    Since that history only starts at 1917, here are some references to earlier times:

    Israel Science and History Homepage


    and a little history of "Palestine":

    History and Meaning Of Palestine and Palestinians


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