Dismiss Notice

Welcome To CK5!

Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon.

Score a FREE t-shirt and membership sticker when you sign up for a Premium Membership and choose the recurring plan.

LAW on California engine swap here!

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by BranndonC, Nov 5, 2003.

  1. BranndonC

    BranndonC 3/4 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Posts:
    8,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Anaheim, Ca
    http://www.branndonandbrianne.com/smog.htm

    That was scanned today while i was smogging my truck straight from BAR handbook, so this is exactally what is required for engine swaps in California.. Enjoy
     
  2. Catman

    Catman Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Posts:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Yucca Valley, Calif.
    Interesting, yet confusing. If I put a 383 in my '90 Blazer and it has all the smog stuff the original 350 had, is it legal???? /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  3. 90blzr

    90blzr 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2001
    Posts:
    3,027
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SO CAL
    As long as you dont TELL them is a 383...I would guess so...as long as the block is the same year as your truck or newer /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
     
  4. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    [ QUOTE ]
    Do not mix engine and vehicle classifications that degrade the emissions certification standards. For example, a heavy-duty engine cannot be installed in a light-duty exhaust controlled chassis even if they are the same displacement. Non-emissions controlled power plants such as industrial or "off-road

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I didn't type that, not taking credit for the spelling or grammar. /forums/images/graemlins/rotfl.gif

    Anyways, that right there MIGHT prevent a 1 ton engine (for example) from getting installed in a K5.

    The other stuff in there almost certainly (IMO) shows that you can not install an engine that was not available in the year vehicle you are dealing with. You can ONLY install an engine in your 1981 K5 (for example) that was factory installed for 1981 K5's. (so I6, 305 and 350 IIRC for 1981)

    This is all legally of course. If you put a 383 in your truck, how are they going to know? I've heard of them checking block numbers, so that could be an issue, but not for a 350 based 383.
     
  5. SS66

    SS66 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2003
    Posts:
    538
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    WI, USA
    I feel sorry for you Californians. So many stupid laws. It seems EVERYTHING there is regulated.

    p.s. My state isnt far behind in the 'Commie' race.
    Time for a move to Alaska!
     
  6. 90blzr

    90blzr 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2001
    Posts:
    3,027
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    SO CAL
    So.....if I have a big block out of a 2002 dually....I can swap it into my 1991 crew cab since it came with a big block from the factory, and have zero issues with the smog nazi's? Is that what this is saying /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
    Wonder how much of a biiiattcchhh it would be swapping in the 2002 engine?? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
     
  7. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    *I* would say yes you could. What CA says could be different, and I'd hate to tackle that swap and find out it wasn't "legal". Certainly I'd talk to the CA authority that handles this stuff before trying it, and I might even try to get a signed statement from an official, or at least find someone that has done the swaps legally, recently, that can give you real guidance on what CA really wants.

    However, from the bit I glossed over, THE INTENT is to have you put an engine in there that pollutes less than what the vehicle originally had, or what it could have had. Since the 454 was available in your crew cab, again going with the *intent* of the law, you should be able to swap the newer 454 into yours. You just have to have ALL of the emissions components, which essentially means gutting your truck of everything electrical and drivetrain, and putting the 2002 drivetrain in yours.

    Obviously that is an extremely generalized statement, but what you will likely find is that there have been VERY few people that have swapped OBD2 (1996+ I believe) stuff into older vehicles, even fewer that have done it without cutting out emissions components, and even fewer that have documented online what they did. There are a lot of things that are on their 3rd or 4th generation now (VSS is a big one, security is another to name just two potential problems) which means that the systems now bear almost no semblance to ours...at least a 1993 truck is still TBI, which means that a lot of the parts and theory still crosses over. If that makes any sense. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    I looked into installing the Vortec CPI system into my truck, but I could find almost nothing online where others had done the swap "legally" meaning without hacking the emissions system up. Heck, I couldn't find anyone that had retrofitted that CPI setup to ANYTHING.
     
  8. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Posts:
    19,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Everywhere
    Y'all's laws SUCK DONKEY DICK I've live most of my life in the mid-west (Iowa/Nebraska) and now South Dakota. We can drop any engine in that we choose. I'm thinking a 502 big block would be nice in my K5. Just wish I could afford one. /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  9. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    The catch is that it's probably federally illegal to do what you mention (install engines not certified for that chassis) however, the federal government (and your local government) just doesn't inspect vehicles like CA does. I would be surprised if state law didn't mirror federal law regarding emissions, in all states. You know how bureaucrats like to make pointless laws.

    Don't forget, states like NJ and VA inspect the vehicles as well.

    The ridiculous thing about these laws are that they have no leeway in them. The intent is to reduce pollution. If you can get a 454 to pass an emissions sniffer test below the maximum level of the original equipment 350, shouldn't that be legal?

    This of course opens up a huge can of worms, but it's probably pretty safe to say that anyone with half a brain would agree that if you can equal or reduce the amount of pollution your vehicle emits, you shouldn't need to open the hood to show them how you did it.
     
  10. Sandman

    Sandman 3/4 ton status Author

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Posts:
    5,653
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Pocatello, ID
    Laws? whats a law? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  11. I'm from CA and I've never had a smog inspector check my engine block number. I stand there and watch what they do. As long as it passes emissions and the block looks the same size they'll never know. If you change engine sizes then it might give them reason to dig deeper.
     
  12. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2000
    Posts:
    4,389
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    PA
    [ QUOTE ]
    The ridiculous thing about these laws are that they have no leeway in them. The intent is to reduce pollution. If you can get a 454 to pass an emissions sniffer test below the maximum level of the original equipment 350, shouldn't that be legal?

    This of course opens up a huge can of worms, but it's probably pretty safe to say that anyone with half a brain would agree that if you can equal or reduce the amount of pollution your vehicle emits, you shouldn't need to open the hood to show them how you did it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agree 100%.
     
  13. ntsqd

    ntsqd 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2002
    Posts:
    3,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    So. CA
    [ QUOTE ]
    So.....if I have a big block out of a 2002 dually....I can swap it into my 1991 crew cab since it came with a big block from the factory, and have zero issues with the smog nazi's? Is that what this is saying /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
    Wonder how much of a biiiattcchhh it would be swapping in the 2002 engine?? /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you do an engine swap you are supposed to report it. IF both engines happen to be BBC's then I would not. Never give the gumberment too much info, they'll always use it against you. Just make the new engine look like the old engine (have all of the old engine's equipment) and plead ignorance if questioned. Helps to have gotten it dirty after the work is done.

    There's some wording in there that states that you can not go from heavy duty to light duty. So a 454 out of a 3500 can't be put in a 1500, even if the 454 is a later engine than the 1500's year. So if you want a 454 you need to start with a truck of the 454 SS model's vintage and MATCH that engine's configuration. The 454 SS was the only late model light duty truck to get a 454.

    You can go the other way though, you can put a light duty engine in a heavy duty truck. Reason is that the LD's pollute less.

    The other thing is that you can do an engine upgrade. LEt's say you have a '75 K5 and you put the TBI from a 94 on it. That is an upgrade. You still have to have all of the 75''s CHASSIS mounted smog stuff, but only the engine mounted smog stuff that the '90 engine has.

    Word for those sitting in other states smugly thinking you've got it made. THINK AGAIN. History has shown that as goes Kalifornia, so eventually goes the nation. It's coming your way, you just don't know it yet.
     
  14. mastercraftkpk

    mastercraftkpk 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Posts:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    You don't need to go to Alaska.....Just come on down to Texas. No state income tax, great weather, no road salt, fewer mullets (at least on the women). I moved here from Wisconsin in '90.

    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  15. mastercraftkpk

    mastercraftkpk 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Posts:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Don't confuse State law w/ Federal law. Don't let California (or Jersey & Virginia for that matter) off the hook so easily by blaming the big bad federal government.

    The state has 100% jurisdiction and responsibility re: motor vehicles. The feds can "guide" their policies (fed highway funds), but the state itself makes and enforces the laws.

    Maybe Gov. elect AAAAAHHHHHHNOLD will make some headway w/ the peoples republic of California.

    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  16. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    [ QUOTE ]
    Don't confuse State law w/ Federal law. Don't let California (or Jersey & Virginia for that matter) off the hook so easily by blaming the big bad federal government.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    State law can NOT be more lenient than federal law regarding the same issue. (if anyone doubts this, look at the medicinal marijuana users or suppliers now in jail)

    I'm not saying the states have no fault in this, but the fact is, the EPA told CA to fix their air way back when, and that is what drove the regulations now in place. Unfortunately, that makes CA the proving ground for the rest of the countries emissions (and safety) regulations, and thats where the problems stem.
     
  17. Z3PR

    Z3PR Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Posts:
    19,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Everywhere
    [ QUOTE ]

    The catch is that it's probably federally illegal to do what you mention (install engines not certified for that chassis) however, the federal government (and your local government) just doesn't inspect vehicles like CA does. I would be surprised if state law didn't mirror federal law regarding emissions, in all states. You know how bureaucrats like to make pointless laws.

    [/ QUOTE ] In all my time wrenching on verous vechiles, I've never heard of and laws about what you can or can't have under your hood out here. Now I'm not sayin' there isn't one, just that nobody gives a rat's ass including the inspection station down town Omaha, Ne. .
     
  18. mastercraftkpk

    mastercraftkpk 1/2 ton status

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Posts:
    192
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Your mary jane analogy does not support your argument. It is a question of jurisdiction.

    Besides, let's not argue over who killed whom.

    If you want to affect change of the California laws, hold the State (ie your elected officials)responsible. The Federal EPA excuse doesn't hold water when you look at facts re: contribution of so called "green house" gases, global warming, etc.... Special interest (Sierra Club and other crap organizations of the like) has more governing pull in California than the EPA does. Your fellow citizens are directing your access to Liberty.

    Do not be distracted by all of the spin that you are fed on a daily basis, and "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

    "They" won't be happy until we are all lockstep braiding our hair, dressing in hemp, riding tofu powered public transportation to the commune.

    The EPA can only make "recommendations". California is the only entity responsible for it's laws.

    /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  19. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Posts:
    26,979
    Likes Received:
    189
    Location:
    Roy WA
    I only need to make one post to respond to both arguments. If federal law isn't an issue, why does the EPA tell *you*, regardless of your location in the US, whether you do or do not have to run a catalytic converter?

    Just because CA has very strict emissions laws, some mirroring federal, some made BECAUSE of federal guidelines, doesn't mean the laws don't exist because you are in another state. What that means is that your state isn't required by the federal goveernment to clean up the air (yet) and that your state is not going to be proactive.

    I don't see how the marijuana analogy isn't valid here. Medicinal marijuana initiative passes in CA. Marijuana is a controlled substance as per the *federal government*. Medicinal marijuana folks grow pot, and are arrested by *federal* agents. They were within state law, but since state law was in violation of federal law, they are guilty at the federal level.

    And, to compare to automotive, your state may not do an exhaust inspection, but I guarantee you that in every state of the nation, it is illegal to remove a catalytic converter from a vehicle that came with it. Doesn't matter what state law is, it's federally illegal.

    If you want to make changes at this level, you've got to go to DC.
     

Share This Page