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Manny's D60: I need OBJECTIVE advice on how to deal with this

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by MuddinManny, Dec 30, 2006.

  1. MuddinManny

    MuddinManny Banned

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    Hi Guys,


    Okay,

    In order to understand this, you need to see my rigs post and the tear down of the Dana 60. When you see it, you'll understand why I am asking this. Granted, the tear down is only half way through at the time I'm writing this, so keep that in mind. Maybe I should wait, but I'm betting the passenger side of this fine example of modern automotive technology is about the same or worse.

    I purchased this Dana 60 on e-Bay. I searched all over Texas for a D60, but there are none to be had. I found one, but the guy wanted $1300.00 for it and it was in need of everything: brakes, rotors, bearings, seals, etc., etc., etc.

    This particular seller specializes in Dana 60's for Ford, Chevy, Dodge and Jeep's. That's all he sells. His feedback rating was 100% with 452 confirmed "kills" at the time of auction. He is ranked as a power seller, and everyone who posted feedback raved about him and his services.

    He posted an axle similar to the one I purchased about a month earlier. I debated, hemmed and hawwed, and lost it to a buy it now bidder. I was okay with that but my buddy Nick was really upset because he told me that I should try to find one locally, but not seeing any success, the loss of that axle for the price, which was the same $1,299.00 kinda smarted.

    Well, I asked questions from this seller the first time. He explained that he cleaned the axles up, power-washed, auto-gun painted, new rotors, bearings, seals, hubs, brake pads, checked calipers, etc. He showed pics of the axle too! From all different angles, and gave what appeared to be honest expectations.

    On or about 1 November, he listed another axle, the same as before. I immediately asked about it, it's condition and purchased it under the "Buy it Now" option. He had the total price with shipping of $1624.00 wired and paid to him within 24 Hours via direct payment checking account, Pay Pal.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here are the pictures of the axle he posted in auction:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here is the actual auction listing:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Issues I refute:

    Seller: Under specifications he states Warn internal locking hubs are used.

    [​IMG]

    Buyer: The hubs show no markings or serial numbers referring to Warn. Cannot determine make or model


    Under Condition:

    Seller: "Degreased and auto body gun-painted...Calipers move freely" "Axle universal joints and both drag link ends look like recent replacements." "The axle pictured is the exact axle you are buying."

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Buyer: Calipers are not painted, not clean, pistons frozen, seals torn

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Axle does not show degreasing nor does it reflect a recent paint job:

    [​IMG]

    Rust can clearly be seen up and down the axle housing assembly

    Degreased assembly ??? Look like recent replacements???

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bottom line, this doesn't look like the axle I purchased, let alone advertised. I could continue to post pictures but all you need to do is go to my thread:

    Manny's '83 K10

    and you can see the entire build up from Day 1.

    I've got $1,624.00 in the axle itself.
    I've got $782.00 in gears, master install kit, locker, u-joints
    I've got $200.00 in gear/locker install labor
    I've got $219.00 in King Pin Rebuild Kits, Upper and Lower
    I've got $ 95.00 in 1410 Pinion Yoke
    I've got $200.00 in ORD TRE's and HD Tie Rod

    So all total: $3,120.00 invested in this D60.

    I'm looking at having to buy all new bearings, races, seals, possible spindles, internal lockout hubs, calipers, brake hardware and hoses. That roughly comes out to another $750-$1,000.00.

    Here is what I am asking:
    1. I want you to be objective, not judgmental.
    2. No personal attacks on the seller.
    3. If you have a position, state it, but don't just say it, back it up.
    4. If you feel I got taken, say so.
    5. If you feel I'm being over reactive, say so.
    6. If you feel that this is normal and I should just shut up and deal with it, say so!
    I want honest candid opinions.

    If this was you, how would you responsibly deal with it? Would you:
    1. Try to work it out with him first?
    2. What would you want back?
    3. Would you just dispute it through your bank and PayPal?
    4. STFU, learn from the experience and move on!
    I humbly ask that you do not approach the seller about this. I can't stop you from finding out who it is. I've tried to keep it as anonymous at this point as I can.

    I'm asking for some help because I've have little experience with Dana axles.

    I appreciate your time, interest and any help, wisdom or advice you give; positive or negative.

    Happy New Year! [​IMG]

    Manny
     
  2. JEBSR

    JEBSR 1/2 ton status

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    Contact the seller and attempt to work it out with him. Obviously the axle was not in exellant condition. You know how much and axle in that condition is worth, you know how much you paid, and you know how much repairs are going to cost you to make it an in exellant condition piece (minus gears, locker, and things you just wanted to add). I would look take those three figures and ask for a refund of what you had to put into the item to make it roadworthy and in exellant condition. Keep in mind If it were me I would go in with the understanding that if that amount brings the price below what an axle like that one in that condition is worth then settle at that.


    Good luck brother. I hope it all works out for you.
     
  3. willymonster

    willymonster 1/2 ton status

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    i think the most you can do is send it back (your dime ) and get your original purchase price back from ebay (SOMEHOW) . my neighbor bought a banshee off ebay and got SCREWD big time and he was a cop . he came to the conclusion that all the fighting and shipping he was going to have to do were just not worth it . :( you can just look at it this way you have a killer axle now just had to take the hard road to get it id just cut my losses and enjoy it . (while trying to cause that guy as much grief as you could without you having to spend anymore money )
     
  4. dhcomp

    dhcomp 3/4 ton status Premium Member

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    Not sure how valued my opinion is, but for what its worth:

    I think you got taken. Get in contact with the seller, thats the easiest, and most straightforward way to deal with it. I'd probably want a new axle, but not exactly sure how much time you have into disassembling this one. I'd want enough compensation that i come out on top for my troubles. Remind him how many ppl know about this situatino through this website. If he handles it correctly, there are many more possible sales, and he knows this.

    If he doesnt' cooperate, check with your bank, paypal (hopefully you did a direct transfer from your bank account), and ebay, and go from there. Don't leave bad feedback until the deal is way done......its a pain to correct.

    If you can return the other parts you have bought for the axle, maybe you can make him just take it back (in return for all the problems you've gone thorugh, esp. if he doesn't have another axle on hand currently) and you and go get an axle from currie or somewhere like you mentioned you coudl for the total price of what you are spending already

    Obviously you've spent a lot of time on this, but hopefully it won't be too much of a hassle to deal with. Good luck, hope it works out for the best!



    Edit: sorry, read this before reading the latest on your buildup thread. Now that you have the knowledge, chat with the seller, box up all the litte parts, and ship teh whole damn thing back to the seller. What a load of crap. Send your other stuff back and call up boyce.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2006
  5. BKinzey

    BKinzey 1/2 ton status

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    The axle in the picture is not the axle you got. We know it and you do too.

    Unfortunately eBay doesn't give a rat's patootie. If you paid with a credit card CONTACT THEM! Then file with PayPal.

    eBay will protect themselves first and foremost and thier primary interest is to close the case.:mad::mad::mad:

    What happens?

    You complain. eBay says you 2 work it out and forwards your complaint to the seller. Once the seller receives the complaint ( yours will be "Not as Advertised") You work it out or have 10 days to escallate to the next step. Should you miss this time frame your case is closed and you are booted out the door.


    WORD OF CAUTION!

    Do not close your case or miss deadlines until you have your CASH in your grubby hands. That means checks & money orders have CLEARED, not just credited, your bank.

    It's common for thieves to give a tear jerker on how their pet slug has cancer and the Vet money is frozen by PayPal and if you would drop the complaint Sammy the Slug will be saved.

    Once you drop or close a complaint it cannot be re-opened. This little tid-bit isn't revealed until you close the case:mad::mad: and PayPal has booted you out the door.

    So you, or the seller, moves the despute to the next level. It makes no difference who makes the move and requests PayPal to make a decision.

    Then PayPal, in thier own good time, demands you get a third party opinion on company letterhead and FAX it to them. You are given 15 days (10?) in which to comply or your case will be closed and you will be booted out the door.

    The total idiocy here is who's to say you are actually showing the third party the item sent or that the third party isn't your Uncle Bob.

    Oh, those nice pics and diagrams you have? They are WORTHLESS:eek1: as far as PayPal is concerned. Just the third party on company letterhead.

    So should PayPal decide in your favor you will have to, at your expense of course, return the item and send PayPal a tracking number. Yes, there is a time limit to ship or your case will be closed and you will be booted out the door.

    After the item is returned PayPal asks the seller for your money back. PayPal can grab money in the account but if there isn't any or not enough they will negociate what they can. The only pressure they have is pay up or be tossed off eBay / PayPal.

    Now your guy is running a business so he will most likely pay up. My guy had only sold a few items and since PayPal took thier sweet time he had just over 90 days to sell what he had listed and close shop. I got 60 to 65% of my money back with the added insult of having to pay almost $50 in return shipping.

    My item was sold as a Banks Turbo but was a GM-4.

    PayPal assured me they will try to get the rest of my money back:rolleyes::rolleyes: but I have absolutely no assurances "Mike's Auto Service" hasn't re-opened as "Ike's Auto Service."

    So sure, jump through the PayPal hoops but avail yourself of any, and all, other avenues.

    Good Luck
     
  6. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    Man that sucks---

    For $1300 you got took. If it were $8-900 id say deal with it. but it wasn't. It clearly wasn't "as advertised" (although the bends in the tierod look to be the same, it is a very easy "bait and switch" mod)

    It is absolutly clear to me that that axle is a basket case and needs new EVERYTHING. If you havent put the gears in already I would send it back and get your money back and keep looking. I know for a fact I can get one here for $1k flat in used but running condition and I HATE dealing with the guy that has them.

    If the gears are already installed I would try to get some money back and keep workin in it.

    good luck
     
  7. sweetk30

    sweetk30 professional hooker Premium Member

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    thats what we call bu!!!!!!!!sh!t right there.

    and those look like stock factory installed warn hubs. but sticker fell off.
     
  8. Greg72

    Greg72 "Might As Well..." Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Manny,

    You can see my comments in your other thread also, but my simple answer is this....

    New D60s cost $4000 - $5000 from Dynatrac / Boyce etc.

    You found a D60 for $1200 instead..... sight-unseen, from a seller you don't know, buying from photos only (which always look better than in real life, BTW)

    There is a reason why the axle was cheaper than "new"....it needs work.

    The seller sounds a little shady given that he's powerwashing the axles and shooting a little fresh paint on the outside....maybe he claimed it had a few new bearings that it really didn't have, but who cares? You have to expect to completely tear down and inspect any used part you buy....so your only real objective should be to get the part as cheaply as possible so that even after buying all the rebuild parts, you feel like you still got a decent deal.

    In this case, you overspent somewhat on the axle.....consider instead that you got a $1000 axle, and a $500 education. Not all deals are great ones. Your Janke engine was a great deal.....this axle wasn't.

    Next time around, you'll be an experienced buyer and will know what to look for.....sometimes getting that experience costs you some $$$. I know I've learned MANY things the hard way and I've paid good money for stuff that turned out to be junk.

    The CK5 community will help you avoid a lot of the pitfalls if you ask the questions first....so ultimately you'll end up saving plenty of money and frustration along the way.


    :thumb:
     
  9. gmc4cw

    gmc4cw 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    caveat emptor.

    You can not count the shipping and anything not stock you spent on this axle. I can buy the SRW hubs from work for $360 a pair. they include rotors, studs, races, and the hub body. subtract that from your purchase price and you bought a core for $939.

    In my area takeoff axles are $800-1000. as far as him stating they are warn hubs. I read the ad very carefully. he uses the keyword at the bottom but does not state what the hubs are. maybe he told you this in an answer to a question you asked.

    "like new" and "new" are 2 different things. any lawyer will tell you that. the seller knows how to cover his butt.

    basically you bought something without doing enough research. this is on you. If you had found this axle in the junkyard and had the same amount of time and money in it you would have nothing to complain about. not everyone can get a great deal.

    maybe I am the only one that feels this way. It took me years to buy my 60. a friend of mine had it sitting in his field in a pile of other axles. He wanted $600 for it with DRW hubs on it. It was worth that. and he as my friend so I should have just paid him. I waited and beat him down every so often. $360 delivered, best money ever spent.

    You learned to not trust anything you can't hold in your hand and know its condition. Time to move on cause your build thread is getting negative. Awesome truck and keep up the good work.:waytogo:
     
  10. readymix

    readymix 3/4 ton status

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    Those hubs are the spicer OEM. Made by Warn.

    You may want the Warn name on them but the OEM spicers are nothing to scoff at.
     
  11. HoodRich

    HoodRich 1/2 ton status

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    I completely agree with gmc4cw. I will say that if you need any other D60 parts try partsmike, or Extreme Axle Sales via Doug Brown IIRC. I picked up my housing from him for 250 shipped to my door in two business days, and I have another 300 in all of my outter assemblies from a fella off pirate. In total I'll have less that 2K in my 4:56 gears 35spline through out, detroit locked front D60 with drive flanges.
     
  12. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Rattle can rebuild...

    When I bought my D60 and 14 FF I began the 'deal' on the phone, then drove down with cash in hand. No cash changed hands until I was satisfied with what I was getting. FWIW the seller had both diff's on stands, covers removed and allowed me all the time I wanted for inspection. He even threw in the spring plates for the D60 when I asked for them.

    My D60 has those same locking hubs...

    I paid $1250 for the D60 and $550 for the 14 bolt. 4.56's, brand new brakes on both diff's, Detroit in the 14 bolt.

    Aside from crossover and king pin springs and bushings I recently did my D60 didn't need anything. I've run it the way I bought it for the last 4 years.

    I'd complain to the seller of that diff, and see if his eBay rating means anything to him.

    Rene
     
  13. kgblazerfive

    kgblazerfive keymaster Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Man I must have the gift of good deal I have less then $800 in my D60HP and $50 in my 14BFF Van

    I agree Greg72 suck it up and move on tell the seller what you think and tell all your friends about the bad experience that you had, the 4x4 community is alot smaller then people think, word will get around.
     
  14. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Thing was I already had a 14 bolt, but open with 3.73's...to add 4.56's, Detroit and new brakes would been a lot more than the $550 I paid for the second 14 bolt.

    Seems high for a 14 bolt, but really was a no brainer. Diff only had 30,000 miles on it.

    Rene
     
  15. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Sorry, those hubs are Warns, period.

    Spicer and Warn are two different brands/names, etc. They have absolutely nothing in common with each other.

    Spicer is named connected to and with factory items and parts. Warn is an aftermarket name.

    Spicer hubs look way different than the Warn hubs. Ask me how. I have Warns on two of my K30's right now and I also have 3 pairs of Spicers in boxes in my house.

    Bottom line: they are different and not the same.
     
  16. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Manny, if I were you, and since you already have everything there and rounded up, I would email the seller and let him know EXACTLY what you have posted here and ASK him, politely, in order to keep good standing with you and other eBayers, to reimburse you for the cost of all the extra stuff you had to pay for. Not the cost of the D60 or the shipping, but anything else that was deemed neccessary to rebuild the axle that was falsely labeled in the auction.
    If I were the seller and did this and didn't want to get negative feedback with the chance of losing customers, I'd try to work it out the best I could with the buyer.

    If all else fails, eat it as a loss and leave a negative feedback. You'd probably be doing others a favor if you did.
     
  17. JEBSR

    JEBSR 1/2 ton status

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    I have two sets of those (1 set on, 1 set for trail repairs) and have had no problems. When I got my 60 one was broken (differant type) but what I notice is that who ever installed them clocked it wrong and it was halfway between engaged and disengaged. Put the factory style warns on and have gave them hell... So far so good.
     
  18. Tominator II

    Tominator II 1/2 ton status

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    Why do you think you need to replace the kingpin setups and the bearings? When I bought a trashed m1008 for the front Dana 60 I replaced the axleshaft ujoints and repacked the wheel bearings, lubed the kingpins and tierod ends and was good to go. Give the seller major bad feedback on ebay and move on is what I would do now in your situation. The warn hubs my 60 came with have plastic centers for engaging so they are not superior in any way.
     
  19. blazinzuk

    blazinzuk Buzzbox voodoo Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Now obviously you have some problems here he stated new seals and bearings and the such and those were not, basically I would try to get that new stuff from him, no money just the parts. If he stated it and they were in fact not new parts at least you have some ground to stand on. IMHO you can't really count all the above costs cause even if you bought an axle in great shape you still would have bought all the above items except mabey the u joints.

    I think about your only recourse is to talk to the guy and try and get some parts from him. I doubt he will refund your money. To some poeple negative feedback on ebay is absolute no no. They will do anything to prevent that, just hope this guy is one of those folks
     
  20. BKinzey

    BKinzey 1/2 ton status

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    Looking at this again, other than saying the u joints look good does he actually mention anything past the hubs & rotors?

    I'm thinking maybe you can get calipers & u-joints out of him but you are kinda stuck on the rest.

    Certainly the tie rod and TREs shouldn't be charge backs. Labor is your loss as well.

    Another thing in his favor is you've bought parts and had work done before contacting him. I don't know the legalease but it's a general rule of law he is supposed to have the opportunity to "make things right" before you seek other remedies. He can now claim he would have shipped you a completely different one or made good, whatever. He's in the same position now as if you had work done by an unauthorized mechanic but want it re-embursed through the original warranty.

    I would contact him though. Be sure to "Be Nice" as well cuz he can still screw you:bow:
     

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