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Moral equivalency

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by gjk5, May 4, 2007.

  1. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    Some people like to compare our society to the Islamists that we are fighting in the war on terror. They like to say that their society is just different; not any less worthy of respect. They say that we have no right to feel morally superior, no right to call them backwards.

    I beg to differ:

    The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy

    Last updated at 18:28pm on 3rd May 2007
    A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.


    As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.
    Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life. Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.

    They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend.
    Miss Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul.
    A large crowd watched as eight or nine men stormed the house and dragged Miss Aswad into the street. There they hurled stones at her for half an hour until she was dead.
    The stoning happened last month, but only came to light yesterday with the release of the Internet video.

    A society in which this type of thing is accepted behavior is an abomination, not worthy of it's own existence. There is a reason that our men are there fighting and dying to change these people's fundamental way of life. This is not a "Regime Change", this war is an attempt to bring these people out of the stone age politically and socially. There is no hope at all for these people if we cannot change their SOCIAL (not political) structure, and as much as the apologists, liberals and otherwise retarded people see this as our imposing our will on the Middle East, this war is for THEM, not for us. Because unless we can change their basic way of life, we have no other choice but to destroy it completely.
     
  2. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Yeah but good luck changing all that... short of leveling the place I don't see it changing much... It's just a different way of thinking, we hold human life as high as they hold their beliefs I suppose.
     
  3. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    see, that's moral equivalency right there. is it so hard to call it "wrong" rather than "different"?
     
  4. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    But wrong according to what guidelines? Our entire moral and legal system was (rather you want to admit it or not) originally based on Christian beliefs...
     
  5. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    I would have to be a moron to deny that our society is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs.


    I guess by your reasoning we were overstepping our bounds to actively work for the downfall of the USSR? I mean, who are we to say it's wrong for them to kill millions of people?

    I'm not a religious guy, but that does not mean that just because something is based in a certain religion that I am going to doubt the possibility that it is a fundamental right. The Bill of Rights is also undeniably based on Christianity, does that meant that freedom of religion, speech and the






    sorry, I'm not wasting my time. I just realized that if you cannot even concede that stoning a 17 year old girl to death is wrong (not "different") there is no reason to respond.
     
  6. MattK

    MattK 1/2 ton status

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    Exactly. Our occupation isn't going to change the fundamental belief system of an entire people (of a religion growing faster than any other). It would probably make a lot of Americans feel better about our presence in the Middle East, but there are only so many more ways we can try to twist the reasons for us being there. It would be a holy war of our own:eek1:
     
  7. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Oh no I totally agree in every sense that it's wrong... I'm just saying that it is literally impossible to make them believe that, without completely annihilating everyone there and starting over... which would be genocide...
     
  8. kgillyk5

    kgillyk5 1/2 ton status

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    We should have leveled that place back in 91' when we had 500,000 troops on the job.



    -----------------------------------------------
     
  9. BoondocK5

    BoondocK5 1 ton status Author

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    OH GREAT!
    Now we have CK5 ethics! j/k guys.

    I remember having this very discussion in my ethics class last semester. It took us several days of sometimes heated discussion to come to the conclusion that was made here in a few short posts.

    I believe the reason it took so long in class is due to the bleeding hearts that exist in the academic enviroment today.

    Now, I firmly beleive that what someone said earlier is true that to get what we want out of this war we would have to commit an enormous act of genocide, and even I am not ready to have that amount of blood on my hands, to justify bringing a particular civilization into the modern world.

    If any of you get a chance, rent the movie "Fog of War" (documentary)it revealed many things we all suspect about the reasons we (the US) go to war, and the justification used to make it all somewhat palatable to the general public.

    But, as pointed out in the movie, most times the reasoning atleast as far as the president and his advisors are concerened, is lost on the general public and therefore not publicized.

    My thoughts; I do beleive the US was justified (using the "just war theory") in the beginning of this whole thing back in '91. but now using the same criteria, I beleive the US has broken more than a few laws and lost a lot of credibility in the eyes of other countries (mostly europe.)

    What to do about it? I'm not really sure, I have my thoughts on the matter but most would call me a genocidal egomaniacal dictator for implementing what I beleive needs to happen. That makes me as bad as those who we set out to remove from power in this war. so to what end?

    Since we are allready there and have FUBARed this thing up so badly, we might as well give at least some religious based version of democracy a chance to do what we wanted it too in the first place. so we are obliged to protect it and let it grow until it can stand on its own.

    (me climbing down off my soapbox...)
     
  10. MattK

    MattK 1/2 ton status

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    What exactly is it that you propose?
     
  11. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    I just filled in the blanks with my imagination and some assumptions... Carpet bomb the entire region, no nukes, clean up time would take way to long. Go through with ground forces to pick off any remaining survivors. Bulldoze what's left, hire some mexicans and replace with strip malls, titty bars, and churches. After that bring in some realestate agents and market it as a "newly renovated" growing neighborhood that's fillin up fast! :haha:
     
  12. BoondocK5

    BoondocK5 1 ton status Author

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    Which decision would you like me to make? On one hand, I would absolutely enjoy watching that whole region be devoured in several giant mushroon clouds, end of story everyone there dead, US gets nice new oil rich country, just waiting to be rebuilt with an American flag on top. And, the rest of the world steps back and says WTF??!!! we better not screw with them any more. This also entails kicking a few liberal ****heads out of office here at home!

    OR

    we step back and protect this little mess of a fledgling goverment we set up over there and see if it can endure the hardships faced by todays world goverments...
     
  13. MattK

    MattK 1/2 ton status

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    I lean towards the latter:o:doah:
     
  14. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Well the one I came up with for you was much more environmentally friendly...
     
  15. BoondocK5

    BoondocK5 1 ton status Author

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    FOCK enviromentally friendly! and Al Gore too, he is my bitch!:haha:
     
  16. BoondocK5

    BoondocK5 1 ton status Author

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    We need to send a "fact finding" mission to down town Bahgdad. to include several loudmouth democratic senators and representatives, don't forget our venerable Speaker of the house. let it be widely publicized, and send them with minimal security.

    then and only then would we get the funding for this crap and also some real solutions instead of the spewing that lurches from these self important egomaniacs that somehow made it into office.
     
  17. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    Didn't mean to get crabby, guess I needed lunch.:rolleyes:

    If what you are saying is that in their eyes they don't see it the same as we do then fine. They don't have to. My point is that regardless of how they see it, there is an inherent value in a human life. The same goes for us, do I think a US soldier's life is worth 100 Iraqi's lives? Yes I do, but I certainly concede that that is from my perspective. Killing a child by stoning is wrong no matter the context or perspective.

    I too doubt that we can actually force a change in their society, but unfortunately as I said before that is our only humane option (but not our only option). The one thing I am positive of is that we are at war with Islamic Fundamentalists, how that impacts your average everyday Middle Easterner and whether we can get them to at least move away from the extremists is an unknown.

    I will say that I sincerely hope that we do not have to or choose to wipe them all off the map, but when it comes down to it I am an American first and not at all a globalist, if that's what it takes to not loose another American to Islamic terrorists, then unfortunately: so be it.
     
  18. mr.smartass

    mr.smartass 1 ton status Premium Member

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    HA! Aren't those things one and the same now?:rolleyes:

    Seriously though, if more people felt that way, this conflict would have been over a long time ago... or never have started.
     
  19. gjk5

    gjk5 3/4 ton status

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    pretty close. and it'll be even closer after Nov of next year.
     
  20. Big Blzn

    Big Blzn 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    How come I feel this thread is going to be locked soon?
     

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