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My WINALDL data thread

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by B_to_C, Nov 2, 2006.

  1. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    So here is where I will throw up data I have logged through WINALDL both before and after I change the PROM in my ECU from a auto-tranny PROM to a manual tranny PROM.

    For reference as to WHY I need to do this, refer to this thread http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188535

    So I got my cable in the mail yesterday, spent some time today getting it all hooked up and streaming data to my laptop.

    So I logged some data as I drove around for 5 minutes. The data is a 73 page text file, so I don't know what you guys are looking for? I guess tell me where to look in the log for the data you guys need to see to help figure out why my truck failed emmisions so bad.

    TIA!
     
  2. fatbob

    fatbob 1/2 ton status

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    Since you are a paying member, you might want to post this in the injection section.:D
    It's kinda nice to get all the TBI related info together in one place now that we have the section.
    The only thing you wont get, is advice from non-paying members.:haha:

    But dyeager535, SierraClassic , and
    southernspeed are pretty up to date on this stuff, and they frequent it a lot.

    P.S. Or like we used to say.
    Go to http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/

    Just dont ask anyone to burn one for you. They will HELP YOU to do it, but they wont burn one for you
     
  3. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    Yea thanks, I have been there, read that :laugh:

    I'm not looking to burn a PROM, just trying to find out why my truck failed emmisions. I actually saw all three of those fellows looking at this thread earler, maybe they're burned out on answering "stupid" questions :dunno:
     
  4. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    Well I guess this thread wasn't such a good idea afterall :crazy:

    Ok, ok, let's change direction.

    At this point I have a lot of numbers on my screen but no idea what they mean :o

    So: How do you guys (that use the winaldl program) utilize the data you see on the screen??? :dunno: -aside from sending the datalog to TBIchips.com:ears:
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2006
  5. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    It largely depends on what you're looking for. If you're going to try and analize all the data you really need to spend several evening reading up on the thirdgen boards as posted. You can tell from the data what the BLM is up to, the O2 switching, knock, coolant temp etc...all the stuff that could add up to you failing test.
     
  6. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    haha, no way am I ever burned out with EFI questions -- I'm just posting in your other thread!

    BTW, post the log, and we'll go over what everything means to the best of my knowledge :)
     
  7. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    Yea...thats the thing, I about burned myself out today looking over in those forums, and I'm not any coser to understanding this stuff...and my truck has to be re-tested by tuesday at the latest :eek1:

    Here is the log: http://noideaz.com/images/CK5/Log1.txt
     
  8. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Alright, in the future, when you log select only the sensor log. Turn off the flags, error codes and raw data. Turning the others on simply makes the file huge, hard to read and far scarier looking than it actually is.

    Couple of things I noticed from your log there:

    1) Your truck idles too high, an auto truck in park should idle at about 650 - 700 rpm at full operating temps. The IAC shows approx 50 counts an idle, which is about twice as high as it should be at and idle, but also shows the ECM is upping the idle purposely.

    2) Your throttle position sensor is showing some very unusual readings. Take an old school needle style volt meter, and check to make sure there are no dead spots, and that it is adjusted to roughly .54 volts at an idle.

    3) Your BLMs, basically the amount of fuel being added, is off the chart most of the time, at 108 BLM (108 BLMs indicates the ECM is adding fuel, 160 BLM indicates the ECM is pulling fuel out)

    4) Your truck is detecting 145 knock counts per cycle, which is significant enough to be concerned. You might want to check to make sure your timing is good, and that you don't have any crossed lines.

    Does the truck run rough? Aka, is there a cylinder or two not firing? Does it set any codes? Does the knock sensor work properly by retarding the timing if you tap on an exhaust manifold with a hammer?

    Give me some more symptoms so we can narrow it down. I am assuming a mechanically sound, bone stock TBI 350, and I am assuming it to be an electrical problem, either ignition, or sensory.

    Is the EGR working properly?
     
  9. southernspeed

    southernspeed 1/2 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    Nice work Sherlock! Can you tell what he ate for breakfast?:D
    But seriously, good evaluation. It'll be interesting to see what this is.
     
  10. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    SierraClassic, thank you so much!

    1) Can this be caused by a vacuum leak (I didn't check for a vacuum leak over the weekend, but all hte lines were repplaced during the engine swap)

    2) I don't own a voltmeter yet :doah:But for when I do get one....you can ADJUST the TPS? Any more info on that?

    3) :dunno: K

    4) I didn't have a timing light over the weekend, but after looking at my second log... I got to thinking. The fuel in my tank during that first log was from a ghetto 7-11. Just before the second log, I had filled up at a safeway gas station....again :dunno:


    Here's the log from after I filled up with safeway gas, still with the auto-PROM. http://www.noideaz.com/images/CK5/Log2.txt

    And here's the log after I installed the manual-PROM (and replaced spark plugs, wires, and ignition module) http://www.noideaz.com/images/CK5/Log3.txt

    BUT, the computer still does not know how fast the truck is going. I have the 88 speedometer plugged in, and it does show speed (incorrect of course) and I attempted to hook up the wires that come out of the 88 speedo box....but obviously I didn't do it correctly.

    Here is the DRAC from my '90 wiring harness, and the green box that comes off the back of the 88 speedo. This is where I started. I was thinking "which wires do I connect to?"
    [​IMG]

    I used the brown wire all the way to the right (based solely on the fact that it was brown...and a single wire...that I assumed went straight to the ECM :rolleyes: )
    [​IMG]

    Here is the green box that comes out of the 88 speedo. It has 3 wires...a black+white strip (ground) a pink+black strip (ignition power) and brown (ECM signal). The black and pink wires I just spliced into corresponding wires floating around behind the dash, the brown is the one I cut off the DRAC connector.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    This is just my opinion, so don't take it the wrong way, but your approach to injection, and electronic work in general, seems to be a bit "off". I don't have a lot of time to type now, so I can't make this "nice" or long.

    When dealing with these systems, simply splicing into existing wiring without researching is bound to leave you guessing in the future as to whats wrong. So will crimp connectors, or leaving things out of an existing system. Again, this isn't intended to be condescending, but you need to re-think how you deal with electrical stuff. Trying to take the quick way out will likely leave you in the situation you are now, if that makes sense. :)

    To do this right, you need to figure out which pin on the ECM is the 2000PPM VSS feed. IIRC, it's A10. You need to find the '747 pinout (TBI, right?) and double check me. Then you need to pull those crappy crimp connectors off, and solder/shrink wrap the wires together. That's my opinion, and it's harder to do with three wires coming together, but it's the "right" way.

    I am REALLY opposed to splicing into existing wiring, but with the '79 truck, I can see why you would do this. The later fuse panels were much easier to take leads off of.
     
  12. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    No offense taken!

    You're right, my approach to electrical systems here is shoddy at best. Remember, I was trying to get my truck to pass an emmisions test that I had to retake within 10 days. Granted...if this hack job DID work, there wern't any provisions to go back and do it correctly later. But with my schedule the way it is, I had 2 days, and only 2 days (over the weekend), to get my truck fixed.


    I do own the factory wiring diagram / troubleshooting manual for the 1990 blazer wiring harness. Of course I forgot it when I got up early to drive the hour and a half to the shop where I stay the entire weekend to work on my truck.

    I try not to go into things without researching them first, but I figured I would have the book in front of my when the time came to splice wires. So...no one follow my lead on this one, I just needed my truck to pass emmisions!

    I will report back tomorrow with the results of my retest.
     
  13. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    PASSED :D

    Although I will never know if I actually passed because I had every person there bending over backwords to make sure my truck passed :haha:. Here in CO, the emmissions tests are a state program licensed out to one company, Air Care Colorado (because they thought there would be less corruption that way :rolleyes: )

    Well the "guy I know" is basically a peon in the grand scheme of things, but I guess he pulled some serious strings because everyone including the site manager was in on the deal....in fact there were so many people "helping" me that I didn't know who to pay off...so I didn't pay anyone off :haha:-which is fine, because this is the only emmisions test the '79 will ever have to take.
     
  14. mrk5

    mrk5 The Sticker Guy Moderator Vendor GMOTM Winner Author

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    There's no helping him, believe me I've tried! :rolleyes:

    In his defense, he's only "borrowing" the speedo VSS from my '88 TBI donor. So I didn't want him making any permanent connections. Plus it doesn't help when my brother-in-law is there egging him on. :doah:
     
  15. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    1) Its possible, but at this point in time I'm assuming that it doesn't have a leak. We'll continue narrowing the problems down before we assume that the engine has a vac leak.

    2) Adjusting the TPS is easy, simply take a torx bit, loosen the two screws a bit (be careful, its easy to shear them off if they are corroded in place) then twist the whole sensor forwards or backwards to adjust it. TBI is a bit handy in that it automatically assumes that whatever voltage is reported when the engine is first started is the base voltages, but it is still good practice to set it to about .54 volts.

    3) This was more of just a symptom report more than just an exact problem. Simply put, whatever is causing your problems is causing the ECM to either be fooled into thinking it is lean, or is actually leaning your mixture out. However, it isn't always leaned out, infact while accelerating, your BLMs are pretty good with the new chips!




    As Dorian mentioned, you can't just splice wires that are the same color together and expect it to work :D

    Infact, to tell the truth, you really don't need that module at all, as you no longer have the VSS in the transmission tailshaft.

    To wire it up, you need to hook the VSS's black / white wire to a good ground, pink / black wire to a 12 volt ignition source, and zip the brown wire straight to pin A10, as mentioned by Dorian. The ECM has two connectors, one is small, the other larger. The smaller one is connector A / B, with one bank of wires being A, and the other being B. If you look at the end of the connector that is going into the ECM, you will see small numbers printed on the front face, so you can identify which pin is which. The bank letter is printed on the opposite side of the connector, and is visible when you pop the blue or grey wire retainers off.

    Now, your new logs look better than the first one you posted did. Your knock counts are down to normal level from what was a fairly scary one, but your TPS is still reporting very unusual percentages. Thats exactly what the numbers being reported for the TPS are BTW, a percentage. It assumes 5 volts to be 100%, and .54 volts to be 0%. So, any time you are at a negative percentage, the TPS is sending less voltage than it should and may indicate a dead spot on the sensor.

    However, in your case, the thing never shows more than 5 - 6 percent, so I'm guessing it isn't working at all... That may not mean the sensor is shot though, you need to make sure that the grey reference voltage wire has about 5 volts across it, that the blue sensor return wire is showing about .54 volts, and that the other wire goes to the correct sensory ground wire in the ECM.

    The high idle is another thing that you need to figure out. Your IAC counts should be at about 20, while the truck is idling at about 650 rpm.

    So, your mission right now is to test the TPS, and see if it is receiving proper reference voltages etc from the ECM, then once you've fixed it, or confirmed it's operation, then you want to set minimum air. This is done by shorting out the white / black wire with the black / white wire on the ALDL connector under the dash while the truck is in the ignition on position, but not running.

    The ECM should start flashing codes on the SES light, if it reports anything other than code 12, post it here. Meanwhile, the ECM will also be commanding the IAC to close as far as it'll go. Give it at least 30 seconds to do so, then grab the IAC connector, and unhook it. You then want to unshort the ALDL connector, and fire the truck up. If it won't start, your throttle blades are too far shut, and need to be manually opened using the throttle adjustment screw. They are located in the same spot as on any carb, but occasionally have a little plug infront of them. Just stick a punch through it, and pop it out. It then takes a torx bit to turn. Turn the idle up a bit, unitl the truck starts.

    Let it idle till it gets to full operating temperature, at 195 degrees F, then adjust the idle so it is about as low as it'll run smoothly. On a stock small block, that is around 450 - 500 rpm or so. Once you've got it set so it runs smoothly, you'll want to adjust the TPS to about .54 volts, then you can then plug the IAC back in, give it a rev or two to get it to open the idle air passage up, then kill the engine. Pull the positive battery cable for about a minute to erase the IAC code, then fire it back up again. Should idle up for a few seconds, then promptly drop back down to about 650 rpm or so on it's own.

    If its still having issues at this point, then at least we'll have a fair number of potential sensory problems eliminated already :)

    Keep us posted!

    Russ
     
  16. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    Again, Russ, thank you so much.

    I will keep you updated...
     
  17. B_to_C

    B_to_C 1/2 ton status Author

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    So Russ, I owe you a couple of these :bow::bow::bow: Happy belated birthday BTW :D.

    So today I finally go the opportunity to go out and really dig into this stuff. I printed out your instructions and took them outside with me :cool1:

    I tested the TPS and the blue wire was only giving .024V at idle and a max of like 1.7v when it was floored. (the reference wire was the correct 5v) So I went to NAPA and dropped the $45 for a new TPS. I installed it and checked the voltages again. I got .65V at idle and 4.5v at full throttle. I couldn't tell what you ment about adjusting the sensor though :confused: I don't get how to adjust it, the way you explained it seemed really simple, but the whole sensor doesn't move with the torx bolts bolted in (even loosened). So, :dunno:

    [​IMG]

    So now my TPS readings have a range of about 3%-97% (according to WINALDL). Although...I don't see how adjusting it one way or the other could solve that, it would go 0-94 or 6-100, right?

    I also got the speedo wire spliced correctly :o. You'll see that in the log...

    I also did your procedure for adjusting base idle speed. That was pretty easy. And although you don't see it in the log (I started the log right when the truck was started up) after driving for a bit it will idle down to about 675. :D

    Here is the log http://noideaz.com/images/Log5.txt

    Tell me what you think :pimp:
     
  18. mrk5

    mrk5 The Sticker Guy Moderator Vendor GMOTM Winner Author

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    In the picture it looks like it could possibly rotate counter-clockwise. :dunno:
     
  19. Russell

    Russell LB7 Tahoe Status Premium Member GMOTM Winner

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    Don't worry about setting the TPS any -- You're more than close enough for it to function properly :) As I mentioned, TBI assumes that your starting voltage (aka, .65 volts in your case) is the base voltage, while TPI requires you to set it to .54 volts.

    Your BLMs are very stable, and right where they need to be, so as far as I can tell, it appears you have a engine that is running extremely well, and would probally pass emissions with flying colors!

    See, EFI isn't THAT scary, just need to narrow it down to the problem, and replace the sensor causing that problem, and not just throwing money at it in the form of random new sensors (which, as you found out, are not cheap...)
     

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