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need help from the Diesel gods!!!!

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by loonatic72, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. loonatic72

    loonatic72 Registered Member

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    Ok, I picked up this 84' Chevy CUCV with the 6.2 in it. I followed ya'lls instructions and fixed someones wiring gom, when they tried to convert from 24v to 12v. I've got that all fixed and I've got the motor turning over rather quickly but have nothing happening. Is there a way to see if the glow plugs are working?? The truck only has 39K orignally miles on it, but I know these motor eat glow plugs. I tried putting a little diesel in the intake and nothing happened, so all I can figure is there's no spark. Please let me know if im going in the right direction and what else could I try????
     
  2. BadBob

    BadBob 1/2 ton status

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    Oh god, don't pour anything down the intake!

    Hopefully the fuel system has just lost prime, and you need to vent it.
     
  3. loonatic72

    loonatic72 Registered Member

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    ok, I cranked the vent on the fuel filter and fuel sprayed out so it still is primed.
     
  4. DEMON44

    DEMON44 Low-Tech Redneck

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    NOno no no don't put diesel in the intake.........the diesel does NOT work anything like a gasoline engine. There is no spark because there is no spark plugs. Thats not how a diesel operates
     
  5. twodollars

    twodollars Registered Member

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    If your blowing white smoke out the exhaust while cranking, then you very well may have a glow plug problem. If not, for starters try bleeding the high pressure side of the system. Crack each injection line open at each nozzle, one at a time, and crank the engine until you get constant pulses of fuel out of each line / nozzle connection. It will be important to keep a good battery charger on while doing this.
     
  6. DEMON44

    DEMON44 Low-Tech Redneck

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    oh man where to start......

    First how much diesel exactly did you put in the intake? did you turn it over after? How did that work out? was it smooth?


    you will hydro lock that faster than you can say "WTF was that" by putting liquid down the intake. and a slightly bent or fully ****ed rod will be the end of that engine.


    did you crank the engine with this vent open, did you see the fuel squirt?


    *edit* the smoke was next for sure. if you're cranking with white smoke your getting fuel...even a puff. but no smoke no fuel while cranking
     
  7. loonatic72

    loonatic72 Registered Member

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    Nothing happened when I put a little diesel in the intake, nothing happens at all except alot on turns on the engine. The engine cranks great but there's no smoke out of the exhaust. There's not even a sputter coming from the engine. How and where do you crack the fuel lines on it? I crack the fuel filter again after cranking it and the spit out fuel again, so it's building pressure.
     
  8. twodollars

    twodollars Registered Member

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    Loosen the hard, metal fuel line at the nozzle at cylinder no. 1. The nozzle threads into the cylinder head. Crank the engine, and see if you get fuel leaking out of the fitting. But first, make sure that you have voltage at the ESO solenoid. There are two electrical connectors on top of the injection pump - one is the ESO solenoid, one is for the cold start advance. If not, the pump will not move any fuel, regardless of your crank speed. No smoke = no fuel. The ESO should have power whenever the ignition is in the "start" or "on" position.
     
  9. colbystephens

    colbystephens 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    the eso is the pink line on the front of the starter. an easy way to check the gps is to let them cycle and then pull each one out and see if it's hot - be carefull, if it's hot, it's HOT. i doubt gp's as the culprit tho, as you're not even getting unburnt fuel out the exhaust from you description. first thing i'd do is pull each injector line and see if there's fuel spurting out of each one.
     
  10. DEMON44

    DEMON44 Low-Tech Redneck

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    no need to yank the hard line all the way off, you don't really want fuel coming out of it at injection pressure uncontrolled. only crack the nut 3 or 4 threads, not all the way. trust me if theres fuel it'll get wet enough.
     
  11. jdemaris

    jdemaris Registered Member

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    The glow plugs are easy to check - the 6.2-6.5 diesels don't eat glow-plugs if you use the right ones. The original AC Delcos were crap and will blow up if heated for more than 9 seconds at time. Same goes for brands like Champion. Beru makes replacement plugs now with built-in circuit breakers. If you buy the newest plugs from Delco - you will get the updated Beru plugs. Open a Delco box and look close at the new plug and you'll see the Beru name on it. Delco stopped using their own crap and is now repackaging the Beru plugs.
    You can check each plug indivually - by unhooking each wire and - either - put a ohmeter to the glow-plug lead. If it's blown - you will get an open-circuit reading. Of, just hook 12 volts power to it through and ampere gauge - if it's blown it won't draw any current. If it's operational, it will draw 5-8 amps. Do that with all eight - and if you replace any, make sure you coat it with NeverSeiz.
    Once you've established the glow-plugs are not blown, then check that they are actually getting current when the key is first turned on. If you've got wiring problems and the controller isn't working - you can wire a manual glow-plug control very easily. Just a push-button via a relay. Just keep in mind, that you've got 8 plugs that will draw around 50 amps. Also remember that 9 seconds of contant plugging should be the absolute limit - even with the newer "blow-proof" plugs.
    And, as aleady mentioned - the electric-solenoid inside the pump must be energized for it to pump any fuel. It turns on the flow of low transfer-pump pressure to the high pressure plungers inside the pump. You should hear the pump click whever you turn the key on.
    The 6.2 is an indirect-injected engine - and at temperatures below 80-90 degrees - it will not try to start at all without the glow-plugs working.
     
  12. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    There are easier ways to check gp's, and easier ways to swap to manual control.

    Testing gp's, test light with the ground clip hooked to batt + and then use the probe end on the spade connector of each GP. If the test light lights up you have a functioning GP. No light...the GP is dead.

    Manual GP's, find the thin light blue wire that goes to the glow plug controller at the back of the engine near the firewall. Snip the little blue wire about 6-8" from the GP controller and pull it back through the wire loom...then feed that wire through a small hole in the firewall to under the dash. Install a momentary push button switch with the blue wire on one pole. Attach a wire to good ground on the other side of the switch. push button (with key on) and the gp's come on. Release button and they go off. The "Wait to start" light even comes on with the GP's...

    AC does now make a 'constant duty' glow plug...the AC60G. Like every glow plug out there it will eventually die, but it won't swell up and it'll take a ton of abuse without failing. The downside is they do need a bit more glow time to get hot enough. I commonly use up 12-13 seconds of glow when it's at or below freezing here. There are also a few places selling the new "Quick heat" glow plugs. Also constant duty, and fairly durable...but the time from dead cold to full glow is less than 5 seconds. Commonly available for about $10 each.

    For bleeding air from the fuel system take the time to read this.

    From the diesel forum here: http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69490

    Rene
     
  13. jdemaris

    jdemaris Registered Member

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    AC does not make the AC60G glow-plugs. Open a box and look at one - made by Beru in Germany. I had a few run-arounds with AC lately. They've been selling off a lot of badly engineered crap with no product support. Too bad, it's used to be reiable company. But in the case of the AC60Gs - and the repackaging - it was good move. For Ford diesels - same thing. Buy over the counter Motorcraft plugs and you will also get Berus.
     
  14. DEMON44

    DEMON44 Low-Tech Redneck

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    I think he should at least be makeing smoke before getting into GPs. Get to a point that your makeing good smoke when you crank you'll be surprised it might start. If not then run over your glowplugs.


    Check your fuel shutoff solenoid for 12v. throw a charge on your batteries if they;re even a little weak from cranking.
     
  15. loonatic72

    loonatic72 Registered Member

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    Ok guys, I've drained the whole system and put new diesel in truck and got the air all out of the system. I loosened the #1 injector and have fuel coming out of it. I checked the soleniod and have power going to it and power going out on all put the big terminal on the bottom. Maybe ya'll know I have a button in the right side on the dash under where the stereo would be, that says "push on" what is that??? it has two red wires coming out of it and one goes all the way over to the postive junction and I haven't had time to see where the other goes. I still have absolutely no smoke coming out of the exhaust, and worst of all my power wire terminal just came off my soleniod. Since I have a few 350 starters can I take one of the soleniods off one of them???? Thanks for all the help so far
     
  16. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Well, you need to crack every injector loose until each one has fuel dripping. Just having one line bled isn't going to help any...

    Rene
     
  17. jdemaris

    jdemaris Registered Member

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    If all else is working properly, cracking the injector lines is not nescessary. The Stanadyne/Roosamaster DB2 injection system is self bleeding from the injection pump to the injectors. All cracking the lines will do - is save a little cranking time if the lines HAVE gotten full of air. If your engine is spinning fast enough to get over 330 lbs of compression in each cylinder, and fuel is being injected at anywhere near the proper amount and proper time, and there is heat from the glow-plugs in the precompustion chambers - it will start. If you are not even getting smoke - you're missing one of those things. A healthy 6.2 - with no glow-plugs working will usually not even smoke if the temperature is below 40-50 degrees F.
    About you dumping fuel in the intake. Many companies used to do just that as part of the cold-starting procedure. Engines with Standadyne pumps on many older diesels would have a factory-installed hand pump on the dashboard. For cold weather, you'd pump it five or six times and it would squirt raw diesel into the air-intake. The more modern injection pumps are supposed to send enough extra fuel when cold without needing more external contraptions.
    In regard using a "quick test" on glow-plugs with just a test light - yes that will usually work fine - but will not tell you if a glow-plug is only heating partially and not drawing the proper amount of current for full heat. An amp gauge will.
    In regard to the starter-solenoid - there's no difference between the gas and diesel solenoid. The pull-in coil spring is usually different - but that does not come with the solenoid. Just remember that the older direct-drive Delcos use different solenoids than the later gear-reduction Delcos - and there are also a lot of Chinese-clone gear-reductions starters being used now on 6.2s. I love them. For $85 brand-new - you can't beat them. I've got them on my G.M. 6.2s, Ford 6.9s and 7.3s, and a few farm tractors.
     
  18. colbystephens

    colbystephens 1 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    with no intention of being an ass, i'm pretty sure that most of this is inaccurate info.
     
  19. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    From personal experience I'm gonna concur :D Not that I have professional diesel repair/service to back me up, but my 6.2 would not even hint at starting until I had 6 of eight lines dripping fuel. Even then it ran pretty rough for quite a while before all the air was gone.

    The test light GP test method is a quick and dirty way of checking for problems. It's not the ultimate test of GP health, but it will very quickly and easily tell you if a GP is dead.

    Rene
     
  20. jdemaris

    jdemaris Registered Member

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    Hmmm... interesting reply with little substance. You disagree based on what - emotion? I've been a diesel mechanic for forty years, and have been working on Stanadyne/Roosamaster systems since the 60s. I also worked in a pump shop as a pump rebuilder for CAV, Bosch, and Stanadyne/Roosamaster pumps and injectors. In regard to the 6.2s as used by GM, I've been working on them since they came out in 82 - at a professional level. I also own quite a few. Now, that doesn't mean I'm never wrong, nor do I claim to know everything. I am also not well trained with the new common-rail and computer-controlled direct-injection systems since I'm not in that business anymore. That being said - everything I posted is accurate.
    The DB, or DB2 rotary pump does not even need injector lines hooked to it to pump fuel. When rebuilding them, very often we'd first test them with the lines off - with just the feed-fuel hooked up. When you crack the injector lines, you speed up the process of getting the lines filled with fuel since the opening pressure of the injectors is not involved - but - it will happen anyway - withtout cracking the lines. The only way that pump gets air-bound is on the inlet side. Fuel from the exit side of the pump comes from the high-pressure plungers that can easily generate 10,000 PSI -and will pump fuel at zero pressure or 10,000 lbs. of pressure - but of course - at zero if will pump faster, and therefore the lines get full faster.
    To put it simply, the basics of the DB2 pump are - it has a little low-pressure fuel pump (vane type) hooked to a plunger-type high pressure pump - all in one unit. If the low-pressure pump (on the inlet side) gets air in it, it won't be able to pump fuel to the high pressure side. But, once it does have clear fuel with no air-bubbles in it - and the high-pressure plungers are getting the fuel - there is nothing beyond that point that you are going to do - that will hamper fuel flow by air getting in.
    If you were to run out of fuel - out on the road somewhere. All you have to do is get the air bled out of the inlet side of the injection pump. That, because the injection pump has it's own low-pressure fuel pump built into the back of it. It is a four-vane type pump and will not work well until all the air is out of it. Thus the need for bleeding. On some applications, those pumps are used with no other fuel pump other that one inside the injection pump. With the Chevys - at least with the 6.2s, GM was nice enough to add the separate mechancial fuel pump on the engine to make things work a little nicer (and later, an electric pump). On the Chevy Chevette diesel - they didn't bother - i.e. no external fuel pump. I've have installed pumps on many mechanically injected 5.7s, 6.2s, and 6.5s and got them started with little trouble without cracking the lines.
    Since you guys out there are telling me I'm wrong - please explain, with a few accurate facts.
     

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