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Never see Oiling subjects here, so here is one...

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by sled_dog, May 31, 2004.

  1. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    Want to discuss oiling systems for offroading. I'm seriouslly thinking in the not too distant future I will begin building a buggy. If I do it will probably be a Propane powered SBC setup. So got a fuel system that can run as long as you oil pressure, so how do you maintain oil pressure? On the K5 I've just got a standard pump and pan. Obviouslly Dry Sump would work, but lets not discuss multi thousand dollar options. The only thouhgts I have are, polish the lifter valley, chamfer all oil passages, and polish and chamfer the heads, all of which add up to getting oil back down to the pan asap. For power windage trays and scrapers are the ticket of course(sure no huge gains but you know what I mean) but would you just not want to run these on a hardcore offroader? Wouldn't it be better to have the oil sloshing around and sticking to the crank as much as possible? Thoughts on everything? Pump options, pan options, want to hear peoples thoughts, if anyone knows what works well that owuld be great. I saw a nice oil pan setup on American Hotrod today, was completely flat with the pickup somewhere around the middle of the crank. Thought that would be interesting, would loose overall capacity.
     
  2. dyeager535

    dyeager535 1 ton status Premium Member

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    Seeing what some folks get into with the circle track cars, I say no, you do not want the oil sticking to the crank. That would help froth the oil, which results in increased oil consumption, and less efficient oiling overall.

    On that topic I'd imagine a crank scraper to be a good thing in just about any case.

    As to smoothing the lifter valley and all, it probably won't hurt, but I wonder about the guys that really go to extreme angles...is oil starvation not an issue for some reason? I figure the SBC pan design is probably pretty good for this, (shallow at front to prevent oil from puddling there) but I would still imagine going DOWN an obstacle the oil would tend to fill the front of the engine, potentially starving the oil pump.

    I don't think making the surfaces smoother will help in most cases though for traversing angles.

    I compare this to circle track because the way they race, I can see the similarities with operating on angles. They run angled oil pump pickups and kicked out oil pans to combat the oil travel to the one side of the block. (they also blow a lot of engines lol)
     
  3. fortcollinsram

    fortcollinsram 1/2 ton status

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    IMO, I would get a pan with some "trp doors" in front of the oil pump to keep oil in the back of the sump where the pump is..These doors will let the oil flow back towards the pump, but slow it down as it tries to flow to the front of the sump. I think the biggest concern on an SBC or BBC is in an extreme downhill facing situation, the oil will run away from the pump and the pump will have no oil to pump. a bigger and deeper sump would help aleviate this to some degree. Also a windage tray would help keep the oil in the sump. Oil on the crank counterweights has NO effect on the fluid support of the crank and rods at the rod and main bearings.Also I say stick w/ a std. volume pump..

    So My recipe for preventing oil starvation in an SBC in a Wheeler is:

    -DEEP oil pan with trap doors and windage tray
    -Standard vloume oil pump


    Chris
     
  4. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I don't think there have ever been issues with a chevy oiling system. People here run some pretty crazy setups without problems.
     
  5. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    yea what he said. when i was on the dunes this weekend, the last hill was a preaty steep down grade, (probably like 70* about 150') i still had great oil presure, same with going up the same hill. i have the stock pan with the stock pump.
     
  6. surpip

    surpip 1 ton status

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    i would thing stock is fine also, some of those thing you mentioned are for rcers that are trying to get every last bit of power out fo their engine, not really needed in a stright wheelin vehicle just my .02
     
  7. cybrfire

    cybrfire 1 ton status Vendor GMOTM Winner

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    This thread gets me to thinking about fuel pickups in fuel tanks and cells. The common problem with fuel running to one side or the other maybe front or back. Everybody touts those fuel pickups that summit sells. They shut off when not submerged in fuel. Do they make some kind of thing like that for oil pans? Pickup in the front and in the back of the pan and whichever one isn't submerged shuts off and the other is supplying oil.

    I read somewhere that if you drill a small hole in the threaded plug behind the timing chain that goes into the lifter valley it will aid in the oiling of the timing chain and extend the life of the timing chain as well as expedite the oil back to the pan.

    BB chevy, cam oiling seems to be a problem. There are aftermarket cam oilers available for them.
     
  8. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I don't see the point. It's simply not necessary. I don't think anything on wheels is going to go somewhere where it would need an oiling system superior to what it has.

    Mine has a 4 quart pan and a high volume pump that the previous owner put in and I haven't had any issues, and I doubt anyone else here has, either.

    Without EFI, the engine will die LONG before it has problems anyway.
     
  9. cybrfire

    cybrfire 1 ton status Vendor GMOTM Winner

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    don't get me wrong I don't think its necessary, but there are those that like every insurance they can get. On the other hand I can think of alot of different things people do to upgrade their oiling systems and alot of companies selling parts. It can't all just be "snake oil." For instance my uncle builds race engines for a living and he polishes the lifter valleys, chamfers all the drain holes makes some larger and all that jazz. Uses certain oil pumps with certain pans and baffles added so I would venture to say those engines have superior oiling systems. How much of it is necessary and how much is just for good measure I really don't know. If I were about to drop a good chunk of cash on a nice new engine I guess I would like some insurance as well.
     
  10. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I completely agree on knocking the casting flash out of the drainback holes. It's amazing how crappy a job GM does on that kind of stuff from the factory. You don't need to be an engineer to notice the possible gains from that.

    But the oiling system itself I'd say is better than 90% of other engine designs.
     
  11. 84_Chevy_K10

    84_Chevy_K10 Banned

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    I completely agree on knocking the casting flash out of the drainback holes. It's amazing how crappy a job GM does on that kind of stuff from the factory. You don't need to be an engineer to notice the possible gains from that.

    But the oiling system itself I'd say is better than 90% of other engine designs.
     
  12. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    actually what Cybrfire was reffering to with the BBC cam oiling is a problem, there have been people to wipe out cams just using the motor hard. I wonder if designing such an oil system for a sbc would be impractical. See the point is, my fuel system will be able to run at pretty much any angle, and I will use that fact, so why build a nice 383 or similar all setup for propane then go out and wipe some cam lobes out? As for circle track stuff, eh its a hit or miss thing when you look at their uses. They don't have carb troubles like we do. My uncle and dad never understand why an offroad truck would have carb troubles cause they are circle track racers. They say, oh but the bumps and stuff we hit out there are as bad as anything you will see.... yeah tell me that again when I have a picture of the K5 doing a tailstand off a bump /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Trap door pan with a nice deep pickup sounds pretty good. My point about the windage tray was oil getting into the crank and the crank becoming one big slinger of oil. But airation makes sense if thats happening. I agree on not running a higher volume pump, thats all we need, get to a point where there is limited oil in the sump and suck it dry. As for polishing lifter valley and chamfering holes, I can't say I've met a serious engine builder that didn't do this. Besides its a place to remove material to lighten the block up. Even if just a little. Head castings are just ugly ugly things.
     
  13. sled_dog

    sled_dog 1 ton status

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    oh and I'm thinking the buggy will be rear engine, so yeah thats a different story. hmm hadn't even put a lot of thought towards the oiling system when its backwards. Maybe custom pan just reversed?
     
  14. b55baron

    b55baron Registered Member

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    I'm building a 454 for my Blazer and looked at Milodon, Moroso, and some others. The Milodon website lists pans for 4x4 trucks and includes a list of all the pieces and parts including oil pump (from Melling), pick-up, windage tray, pan baffle, and gasket. It is a deep sump pan that holds 7 quarts. I haven't decided for sure which one I'm going to get, but I'm leaning that way.
     
  15. 84k5

    84k5 1/2 ton status

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  16. Ryan B.

    Ryan B. 3/4 ton status GMOTM Winner

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I read somewhere that if you drill a small hole in the threaded plug behind the timing chain that goes into the lifter valley it will aid in the oiling of the timing chain and extend the life of the timing chain as well as expedite the oil back to the pan.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    And i've heard it will help quiet down a noisy gear drive.

    How bout a dry sump? /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
     

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