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newbie cage design

Discussion in 'Center Of Gravity' started by big83chevy4x4, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    ok ive been in the planning stages for my cage for a while. remember this is going in a truck that will do alot of winter wheeling.

    [​IMG]
    what ya think?
    i know that it should have the rear bars going back to the bed but i dont really want to punch a hole in the glass, then the cab moves differently than the bed and breaks the glass. any ideas on what to do here?

    make changes as you think is needed and what ever. the black is going to be the bent peices and the red is the striaght pieces.
     
  2. Resurrection_Joe

    Resurrection_Joe 1 ton status

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    Look at all the triangles! Looks decent to me, someone else will chime in with better info though

    As for the rear bars, didn't you want to chop the top like me? If so I can lay out my plan for running rear bars for you if you wish
     
  3. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    i want to, but i think its gonna wait for now. if i do i will put the rear bars in /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  4. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    You might look at Brooks "Freak". He lives in Alaska so cold weather was an issue for him too. He designed an exo thing that seems to work well.

    As for going through the glass, I think your right to avoid that. If your going to incorporate rocker sliders, you can improve and simplify the design a bit using the structure of the sliders. Basically, get your front to rear triangulation by going from the top b-hoop node to where you show it hitting on the bottom. The rockers are generally 0.250 wall and can handle the loads in bending, but the vertical typically being 0.120 round can not. Then, the "X" on the back could be made a "V" if the rear lower horizontal is like mine, basically replacing the stock under floor body cross member (stamped sheet "C" channel thing) with a piece of 2 x 3 x 0.188 rectangle tube. With those changes, you basically have my cage with the front/rear triangulation going forward instead of back. If the lower mount of the reversed kicker is not too far forward, it won't interfere with seat access too much and will protect your hips from side intrusions, especially with doors off.
     
  5. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    so your saying do something like this
    [​IMG]
    yea i plan on intregating rock sliders and replace the cab support with 2x3 .240 wall square.
     
  6. az-k5

    az-k5 1/2 ton status

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    I like the triagulation. Also it will be more rigid with a belt bar on the back. A center top spreader will make the roof tubes less likely to bend in a severe roll.
    just my .02
    looks like a great start. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  7. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    what do you mean a belt bar?
    and the spreader, something that goes perpendicular to the top side bars? /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
     
  8. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Actually, those forward side angles are great, but will be in the way, that's not what I was suggesting. I was talking about the ones from mid rocker to the b-hoop/bar (in the back). They should ideally go to the top in order to provide maximum resistance to the cage pushing forward. In the rear, with the “V”, that’s exactly what I meant. You can even mount the shoulder straps to the “V” (I think that’s what Matt meant by belt bar) since they should be in about the right position.

    However, if you continue to run a full cab around it, it will probably be unnecessary over kill for any normal roll unless you plan on high speed stuff, but then the whole thing needs rethought (comfort and ease of use are distant considerations at that point).
     
  9. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    [​IMG]
    like this, right?

    th bottom would stay at the same point, but would it matter in strength if i lowered it on the b hoop by 6 to 10"? i might get it together and its in my way too much /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

    would it be better to have the b hoop 1 piece or the sides 1 piece.

    what benefit does gussets have, should i use them on this cage design?

    what is a good stock to use? im thinking on 1.75" .120 wall DOM or should i go with 2"

    i want something that will hold up to rolling down a hill 4 or 5 times. not that i plan on doing that, just want to have the option /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif

    i am also planing on a 4 or 5 point harness /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  10. 87GMC

    87GMC 1/2 ton status

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    FWIW, the weakest point would be a hit to the top of the windshield. This would push the cage back and down. That is one of the things the rear bars helps to prevent. It will be hard to triangulate in you case, but in our race cars we have to run a bar from the center of the top windshield bar to the dashbar. Maybe you can incorporate something similar.
    As far as gussets, put the everywhere you can, we have to put them at every 90 degree connection. They add a lot more strengh then you'd think.
    I can take some pics of our race cages if it helps.
     
  11. Chris Demartini

    Chris Demartini 1/2 ton status

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    <font color="blue">There will be those who disagree with me, but the most well designed and well constructed cage is useless bolted to the floor only. Tie it to the frame at the bottom 4 corners, and mount your seats and belts/harnesses to the cage

    With that being said, the only thing I would do is at an upside-down V between the roof and dash bars. Otherwise, it looks great! Post pictures when its done /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif
     
  12. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Hmm, sorry TJ, I somehow missed those last questions...

    As mentioned before, nodes are stronger. If you can bring bars together at nodes (vertices) then your better off. When a bar does not join at a node, forces tend to make that joint a fulcrum and bend the bar across it. Moving it down is better than nothing, but not ideal... your call.

    I generally prefer a halo design, but second would be a "b-hoop". Doing the sides in one piece would be a pane due to multi-pane bend.

    Gussets in a cage strengthen the nodes. Mostly it's a safety feature in case a node would otherwise break in a weak weld or something, it shortens the "spans", helps transfer side loads to a limited extent (instead of folding a vertex), etc. It can also help a lot when tubes don't meet at a node, or to help support a bend.

    I use 1.75 x 0.120 HREW. With current steel prices, DOM is going to be $$$ and IMO not required. It does stand up to repeated hits and rolls without denting much better, but for a normal cage in a full size, it's over kill. HREW will pretty much do just as much to save your neck in a roll, it will just show the effects more with dents and such. Now a hard core buggy (or comp), where rolls are just part of a days run, DOM makes more sense due to reduce replacement frequency. Mine's starting to get a little battered, but over all is holding up well. These are my opinions, others may disagree. There is a contingent who feel that anyone would be a fool to not use DOM for a cage, I am not among them...

    Matt:
    The side braces we were talking about triangulate the b-hoop and stabilize it much like normal kickers. They are just in tension when the kickers would be in compression and vise-a-versa. And bars going to the dash bar of limited use if the dash bar can not be supported vertically by triangulation or dropping to a floor level support of some kind. Better than nothing, but in a direct hit there, not by much since the dash bar span will give rather easily when pushed down in the center...

    Chris:
    Well, I am one that disagrees with you, at least as a global statement. Useless? I absolutely and totally disagree. For low speed rolls, especially in a full top K5, a properly done body mounted cage (in the normal sense) is quite useful and can certainly save lives. Even in more violent rolls, a cage properly secured to a solid floor can be quite useful, far, FAR better than nothing. My own cage in my truggy is not tied to my frame in any way. I have under floor horizontal supports (sub-frame) that the cage and floors mount to. The cage, sub-frame, floors, and cowl form a “pod” surrounding the occupants. This “pod” then mounts to the frame using the factory body mounts and hardware. I'm confident in saying you won't find a frame mounted cage that is safer than mine (in the general case) for rock crawling. My son's K5 has a modified version of this (not finished) that mounts to reinforced floor pans with a horizontal plate going from side to side and rock sliders (boat side) tied in as well. Again, like mine, there is no way his cage will punch through the floor. And furthermore, for most "frame tie ins" I see around, the frame mounts are less than ideal, making them considerably weaker then my setup, and introducing new problems as well. But I won’t go into that since I’ve made my opinions on the point well known in several previous threads…
     
  13. 87GMC

    87GMC 1/2 ton status

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    I see what you're saying, and I thought about it some more after my other reply. I think you would have to run a bar from each frame rail to the dash bar where the upright mounts, but that may interfere with other stuff--heater box, transmission, etc.
     
  14. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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    i forgot about the question i asked /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif thanks for the replies though.

    i probably wont start bending the tube till winter or even spring. i have to get the suspention done first so i can put the cab back on. /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    I generally prefer a halo design, but second would be a "b-hoop".

    [/ QUOTE ]
    what exactly is a halo design?
     
  15. big83chevy4x4

    big83chevy4x4 3/4 ton status

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  16. Resurrection_Joe

    Resurrection_Joe 1 ton status

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    Halo would be where the ring around your head, running the perimeter of the inside roof of the cab, is one single piece, and 4 legs run from it, down to the floor

    I think
     
  17. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Yep, halo is a ring around the top. B-hoop is a single piece going up and over behind the seats. And side hoop is up behind the seat and back down the front (a-pillar) on the same side.

    Done correctly, one is pretty much as strong as another. I prefer halo because it is easier to get things to fit properly due to use of simpler (usually) single plane bends. However, for internal cages, it may be necessary to choose something different or even combine them to get a good fit based on the contours of the cab.
     

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