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ORD X-over installed, now problems with...

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by zakk, Sep 8, 2002.

  1. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    both the box and the pump.

    the pump is sqealing like a stuck pig. I was hopping curbs trying out the new steering and the PS pump started WAILING and it wouldn't turn over the curb. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

    and the box is leaking.

    the bax is a seal problem (i hope) but what about the pump? it is a kragen's rebuild unit, but i don't have the jack for a leaky ARG unit.

    any suggestions?
     
  2. Zeus33rd

    Zeus33rd Smarter than you GMOTM Winner

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    Haha, Not to insult your intelligence, but was it the box or the belt? Maybe the belt just needs tightening? Or fluid? Or just take the thing back to Kragen and make them give ya a new one. If the new one still does it.....LOL, then maybe it wasn't meant to turn 38's. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  3. NoSmog73

    NoSmog73 1/2 ton status

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    Like joe said "not to insult ya" but did you bleed the air out of the pump when you got it ....

    I have the same thing from them and mine never came with the little rubber gasket that goes in the back of one of the lines and it leaked, So I got a seal and put it in and it still leaks (it looks like from the big fitting in the back and the case .. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif ) so it is going back soon as I can take it out....
    And I second the comment is the belt tight...

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    the pump is sqealing like a stuck pig. I was hopping curbs trying out the new steering and the PS pump started WAILING and it wouldn't turn over the curb.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Is the box set to tight maybe.....or air in the pump from not being bleed...Hope it helps zakk.. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  4. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    yup. bled it good, the pump belt is as tight as i can get it. maybe it backed off (???) /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

    i'll give it a look.
     
  5. Mudzer

    Mudzer 1/2 ton status Author

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    Heres the Crossover Disclaimer....

    Welcome to the wonderful world of Crossover Steering. As a new owner, you will now experience the benifets of Crossover such as Deathwobble, non-power steering and more steering when the axles are twisted up (if you can strong arm the wheel)....

    Okay, I dont think any Crossover Steering system is complete without some sort of Hydraulic Assist. I have found most of these pieced together kits use the wrong arm lengths for this sysetm to work adequately using your stock power steering system. When I installed my pieced together system I followed the norm and bought the same parts everyone else did and found my newly installed steering system a mess. I had more steering when on pavement (wooo hooo!) and a smaller turning circle but put my front tires in some dirt and when setting still you can not turn the front tires easily. So, its almost a given when you install Crossover - you will be calling the Ram Assist guys for relief! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I did get the chance to check out a Ram Assisted Blazer the other day and it is definately smooth steering.
     
  6. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    My cross over worked fine before the assist, even with 42s, really no different than before the cross over. No big surprise, I did have to roll/rock to turn, but it worked. I didn't add the assist till I added the front locker. I'm not sure how the non-adjustable arms work, maybe they are the wrong radius, maybe not. But the Avalanche arms have multiple holes. I can set the radius stock, or closer in for faster response and tighter turn (up to limits), or further out for more power/leverage but larger turn. Sorry, but I don't think it's fair to say that cross over kills the power steering. Sure, if the geometry is off, things won't work right. But, if the geometry is kept within limits to provide the same amount of mechanical advantage as stock, things shouldn't change much there.

    As for death wobble, IIRC, there were numerous posts indicating that it exists on stock front-back trucks as well. It seems more common on cross over though...

    All that said, assist does make things much nicer, especially with locked 42s... /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Just my experience, your mileage may vary (obviously it does). /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  7. BOWTIE

    BOWTIE 1/2 ton status

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    sorry to hijack your tread, zakk. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

    i just installed my crossover set up and the death wobble is non exsitent. even with the front to back steering i never had it, and i was worried that it would show up with the crossover.

    what i'm experiecing now is bump steer. i'm thinking that it's caused from the drad link being too long. i 've already cut it down 1 1/2, but it still needs more adjustment.


    has anybody had this problem???
     
  8. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Well, unfortunately there is always a certain amount of bumpsteer is associated with cross over. This is due to the mandatory angle formed by a straight line (often the drag link) between the 2 pivoting ends (DLEs or Heims). If this line were horizontal, no appreciable bump steer. Since it (generally) must be angled down, axle going up turns right, axle going down turns left, that's just geometry. Only way to fix this is with a track bar the same length, location, and angle as the drag link, and that has numerous issues of its own. A traditional horizontal link running front to rear has the same minimal bump steer characteristic as a horizontal cross over would have. It also has an added advantage of closely matching the axle movement caused by flat suspension movement. However, if the traditional drag link is not horizontal, the resulting bump steer can be even more noticeable (due to shorter radius) than on cross over... And of course, with a traditional drag link, you loose the ability to turn left with the driver's side drooped or compressed.
     
  9. BOWTIE

    BOWTIE 1/2 ton status

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    thanks,
    than really explains alot. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif


    the bumpsteer is not really to big of a deal. i'd rather have it than not be able to steer when my axles get crossed up.



    ric
     
  10. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    my steering wheel is actually responsive now. I used to have to "lead" the wheel a bit before the truck started turning. I am getting a bit more bumpsteer, but the roads i am on a crappy.

    I am more worried about the power steering. I know the thread has been hijacked, but does anyone have a pump suggestion??
     
  11. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    Not much on the pump, I know we've had good luck with AGR where some others have not. I'm using AGR now to good effect.
    Another thing that goes on with crossover is the ratio may not be as "power friendly" as the stock setup, but you'll still be able to steer to the stops. We set our ratios up to get you to the steering stops even if the springs deflect a little (which will happen). With the stock setup, you may not be able to hit both steering stops with the axle sitting on jackstands, much less in the real world. So it may be a bit tougher to turn but you get the full available radius. Not sure of any better way to work that compromise.
    To add some experience here, with aired down 37's, I had to be rolling just a bit to turn the wheels with crossover and no assist. I was running AGR box and pump, just no ram. This was on pavement or on the trail.
     
  12. bablazer73

    bablazer73 1/2 ton status

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    I just ordered the pitman arm so I can finally finish steering. but now I have seen this post. I have been off the board for awhile. What is the "death wobble" and what will i need to NOT have it??
     
  13. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    well, my box seems capible. i am a making u-turns in 2 lanes instead of 3 now /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

    but at a dead stop, the wheel will shake and the tires will be REALLY hard to move. hopping the curb, and it was like manual steering....i might have to give the AGR pump a try /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif
     
  14. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Sorry that I added to the "hijacking". I don't really have much to add about the pump. Make sure it is bled (no bubbles in the fluid?), belt is in good shape and tight (no oil on belt and no broken brackets or missing bolts?), and that the steering box itself is not over tightened (which should be showing other problems if it is). Beyond that, assuming no obstruction in the lines, I would try a new pump...

    As for steering lock to lock, my setup has just a nudge more leverage than stock. This is because I chose a hole on the arm that is a bit further out than the stock radius. This worked well for me because I had to limit my steering anyway to keep the tires from hitting the shocks and steering box TOO hard. The tires still brush but my stops are run out about 1/2”, and my steering is capable of turning just past the stops, if they were not there… As I said, with regard to “power”, my experience was much the same as Stephens except I had 42s…

    On the “death wobble” causes, the jury is still out on that one. Seems that nobody really knows for sure what causes it. I’ll try to summarize what I’ve heard and “come to believe”. Basically it’s more common with cross over, but also happens with traditional steering configs. Often it is due to worn components, but it happens with all new components too. Sometimes replacing worn parts fixes it, sometimes not. Sometimes a change in tire size or lift triggers (or fixes) it. Regardless of the details, it seems to be associated with some sort of harmonic oscillation due to the overall steering design and condition, not any one thing. My advice (and personal approach) is do whatever you think you need to do for a truck that performs well in the environment you want to put it in, be it mall cruising, rock crawling, trail running, or mudding. Make sure any parts worn beyond tolerance have been replaced and that you have no undue flex due to week parts, bad design, broken frame or the like. Then, if you have “death wobble”, put on a steering stabilizer (or two). I prefer to keep the number of stabilizers to a minimum (zero if possible) but, if there is nothing “wrong” with your steering, and it works the way you want it to, AND you have DW, use the stabilizer(s)…
     
  15. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Honestly, I would not get an AGR pump. There have simply been too many people (on here and in person) having problems with them. Seems like service is also pretty bad when people do have problems. Just do a search or talk to Boss and a few others.

    I'm not sure what would cause the wheel to shake at idle, I would almost have to say that's in the steering sector box. Call Matt at WTOR, he has always been more than willing to help. If nothing else he can tell you how to duplicate an AGR pump (very simple) without the cost or warranty hassles…
     
  16. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    and to hijeck my own thread, i have noticed that my factory shackles are VERY worn. when turning they FLEX BIG TIME. I am sure that this is a contributing factor to my "DW" as it is not-so-affectionatly-known.
     
  17. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    i was gonna give WTOR a call. i have heard nothing but good things about their renneck ram over on the PBB. plus it is cheap and effective, which are good selling points to Rita /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
     
  18. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Man, if I got started on how great a guy (and product) you'll find at WTOR, you would probably get tired of reading (and might even think I was a fruit! /forums/images/icons/blush.gif ) Seriously, he is a great guy, he knows his shtuff, and he totally stands behind his product. I'll leave it at that for now... /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
     
  19. zakk

    zakk 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Then, if you have “death wobble”, put on a steering stabilizer (or two). I prefer to keep the number of stabilizers to a minimum (zero if possible) but, if there is nothing “wrong” with your steering, and it works the way you want it to, AND you have DW, use the stabilizer(s)…

    [/ QUOTE ]

    does the hydralic ram WTOR offers acomplish the duty a dual stabelizer would?
     
  20. BadDog

    BadDog SOL Staff Member Super Moderator Author

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    Yes it does, and then some. I have yet to hear of anyone with DW when the assist is installed...
     

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