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PTO question

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by sean'schevy, Oct 13, 2004.

  1. sean'schevy

    sean'schevy 1/2 ton status

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    Now that im swaping in a 2 wheel 465 and a divorced 205 ive been thinking it be cool to run a winch in the rear. I like to run a PTO driven winch But i dont know much about them or where to hook them to trans or tcase. Also i cant seem to find one for either any suggstions on places that would sell the units that bolt to the tcase or trans thanks. /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
     
  2. trukman1

    trukman1 1/2 ton status

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    I have a Chelsea unit that mounts to the transfer case. It was pricey, around $275 almost 20 years ago. Also, you need shafts and joints and clamps to route it. Mine uses a chain-drive that runs from the PTO to a sprocket/shaft mounted on the x-member that is attached to the shaft going to the winch. Currently mine is setup for the front though. Some of the truckshops that work on heavy trucks (i.e. dump trucks, semis,etc) may be the best places to look. Hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  3. diesel4me

    diesel4me 1 ton status Premium Member

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    I have seen several PTO's at the local junkyards on old DPW trucks,tow trucks,and oil delivery trucks--they are hard to beat for a winch,my friends beavertail ramp truck has a 30,000 lb.PTO winch thats worm drive,the only thing that sucks is his has a big chain driving the winch from the PTO shaft that occasionally jumps off or breaks--but you can put the cable over the roof of the car your junking and hook it to the tail of the bed,and squash the roof of the car right down into the seats like it was nothing--in fact he often piggybacks 2 cars onto it that way,he can drag one car right on top of the other one with little effort--I bet if you got carried away you could probably cut the cars in half with the cable(he uses 5/8 stainless steel cable he cut off an old crane at his wrecking yard)either that,or the ramp truck would fold up like a bananna!. /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gifThe worm drive is nice too,because it holds the load wherever you stop it,great for use as a hoist too!.
    I'd try looking in the junkyards for a PTO,there are quite a few in my area,now that hydraulic winches are the choice of 95% of the tow trucks and heavy equipment,there are several of the older trucks that had PTO's in the boneyard.I'm not sure if they all bolt on the same,but most of the one's I've seen on C-60 dump trucks have the SM465 tranny,should be the same as the 10--30 series trucks.I'd put one on the tranny if you have a SM465--remember if you mount it on the tranfer case,and you happen to break the "divorced" driveshaft,you will have "no wheel drive" and no winch either! /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /forums/images/graemlins/doah.gif
     
  4. trukman1

    trukman1 1/2 ton status

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    Sean, It's your choice, transmission or transfer case mount. I chose tranfer case. This winch setup (except for the Chelsea unit which has to be purchased for your specific application) was mounted on a very large HD farm truck and the winch was used for unsticking combines, tractors, etc. you name it and worked without any problems for years. FWIW, I'd mount it to the transfer case because of strength, wear factors and temperatures incurred while in use. The small driveshaft for the divorced case should be the last shaft to go if it is done right. Also, I've never broken or slipped a chain yet in almost 20 years. /forums/images/graemlins/truck.gif
     
  5. OrangeCrushK10

    OrangeCrushK10 1/2 ton status

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    What about a Hydraulic PTO setup? I mean using the PTO to drive a hydraulic pump? Has this been done or are there any Winches that run this setup?

    Does anyone have a picture of the chain driven set-up? Doesn't it get in the way of things?

    I'm just curious as I really want to use a PTO winch. Less cost and more power! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  6. Diesel Dan

    Diesel Dan 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What about a Hydraulic PTO setup?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If your having problems running a shaft driven winch don't even think of using hydrallics. And it gets expensive, fast.
    I have 2 pto winchs, 2 pto boxes for np205s and complete hydrallics to run one if I wanted to go that route. IIRC I ran a #60 chain, single roll. Made sure alignment was spot on and very little slop, never lost a chain.

    My winch sat on top of the frame over the rear axle. Had a 1" jackshaft about 12" lower than the winch using 2 pillow blocks about 8" apart. This keep the driveshaft angles down and allowed me to change gearing if I wanted to with the sprockets.
     
  7. atho

    atho 1/2 ton status

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    I am curious about this too...I know where I can get my hands on a '70 C/30 dump truck with a 292/465 combo and a Chelsea pto on the tranny, that runs the dump bed. I have a 465 in my truck now.

    I have heard that when you run a PTO off the transfer case, you put the transfer in Neutral and use the transmissions gears to change your line speed. I have heard that when you use a PTO on the tranny, you can still vary the speed, but you can use the PTo while in motion. THis would be beneficial off road, to have the wheels help you winch. Could I use this PTO to winch my truck while moving? not at any obscene speeds, just slow 1st or 2nd gear speeds. thanks
     
  8. mcinfantry

    mcinfantry 1/2 ton status

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    transmission driven pto:
    you have to have a 2 direction pto, forward and reverse.
    the pto is either on, or off. transmission gear selector has no bearing on pto direction or speed
    your line speed is controlled by engine rpm
    line direction independant of wheel direction

    you can run your tires and winch at the same time

    transfer case pto:
    single direction pto
    your transmission determines line speed and direction (i.e. reverse,1,2,3,4)
    iirc you can drive the wheels with this one too (its been 15 years)

    ive run both, and i prefer the transmission driven one.
    i have personally been in an open field winching a m715 mired to the frame in the mud. i put my transmission in REVERSE, winch IN and was able to crawl backwards and winch in at the same time. no way to do that w/transfer mounted one
     
  9. atho

    atho 1/2 ton status

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    so, are you saying that ANY pto ran off of the transmission needs to be 2 direction (no matter what the application, dump or winch)? I seem to remember 3 levers poking thru the floor for the one in mind. It would just be a sweet deal cuz I think I can get the truck for free, but if I cant use it for a winch then I will pass.
     
  10. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    Could you recommend a Nv4500 PTO winch? Im assuming it attaches where that "plate" is on the drivers side?
     
  11. atho

    atho 1/2 ton status

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    Pookster, from what I have gathered the 6 bolt PTO cover is an SAE standard for light duty applications. My SM465 has two of those covers, my NP205 has 1. However, you need to get a PTO specifically for your application. You cant just use any 6 bolt PTO. This is what makes finding one a challenge.
    I asked my father about this, and he said that I probably couldnt even use a passenger side SM465 pto on the drivers side, they are that different.

    I am still a little fuzzy after asking him about pto's. He said that I could run a winch off of a single direction PTO on the transmission, but I couldnt move the truck while winching, so its just like a PTO off the transfer case. I still like this idea because it puts the pto on the transmission, and wont stress the trans/transfer adapter as much as I would think a transfer mount PTO would.

    I am still curious how you reel the line in on these type winches, is there a switch on the winch itself that controls forward/reverse rotation?
     
  12. Diesel Dan

    Diesel Dan 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I still like this idea because it puts the pto on the transmission, and wont stress the trans/transfer adapter as much as I would think a transfer mount PTO would.

    I am still curious how you reel the line in on these type winches, is there a switch on the winch itself that controls forward/reverse rotation?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Don't worry about the stress on the adaptes, you'll break something else long before that is a concern. My buddies winch engaged while driving, the hook snagged the rear bumper and folded the truck up before he caught it /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif.

    We all ran ours on the t-case. I had SM465s and they ran TH350s. All the winchs I seen had a free spool lever on them for pulling the cable out, and they were only one direction.

    IIRC, a pto box for a NP203 uses the same gear as a SM465. The NP205 gear is cut at the oppisite angle.
     
  13. Diesel Dan

    Diesel Dan 1/2 ton status

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    BTW, a trans driven pto box for a hydrallic dump will most likely be a single direction/single speed. Hydrallic pumps run one direction and you use a directional control valve to raise/lower a cylinder or forward/reverse a motor.
     
  14. atho

    atho 1/2 ton status

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    thanks for the reply dan...I guess that means I have to go get that PTO and use it! The biggest factor here is price...free vs. however much it would cost to buy a used one. I won't be able to use different transmission gears like I would on a transfer case mount, but free is free. thanks again!
     
  15. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    PTO 101
    If you are in the market for a PTO winch get a single directional unit that mounts to the t-case.
    You have to have a bi-directional one if it is mounted to the tranny.
    I want to see ya flip the free spool lever when that sucker is under a load. You need a way to reverse the spool.
    Did I mention that a bi-directional unit is friggin huge and hangs way down below the tranny?
    With T-case mounted units you have 8 foward and 2 rear speeds. tranny mounted relies on the main shaft for speed(direct drive).
    Tcase in N and just regulate line speed with the gear box for t-case units. Need to go foward and winch? put the t-case in gear.
    Dump beds employ a unidirection cylinder, all ya have to do is supply pressure to raise them, in dump they just bypass the fluid to the tank to lower.
    So the hydraulics are quite a bit simpler in those.
     
  16. atho

    atho 1/2 ton status

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    thanks for clearing that up. I guess I could still get the PTO, and buy the correct gear for a NP205 (from chelsea, if such a part even still exists), and use it. Or buy a new one for a 205... thanks again.
     
  17. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    I have a complete pto winch set up, the only draw back is that tranny mounted PTO.
    If I get around to foolin with it it I am going the t-case mounted route.
    I think I have the PTO part # for a 205 at work.
    There are 4 different places that we deal with that have just about anything a rig needs.
    205 PTO's are pretty easy to find.
    To find out where to get PTO stuff I would call a truck dealer like Mack, Kenworth ect. ect. and talk to the parts department and ask em who to go to for PTO's.
    All those shops will have a good line on that sort of stuff.
    A guy at work has a hydraulic set up for his 72K5. I'll be getting all the goods on that before he installs it.
    I've been thinking of going that route, I like the idea of the lines tied up inside the frame and out of the way unlike a shaft driven one. But that starts gettin spendy fast. As soon as I get a parts list together from his set up I am gonna do a price and availibility on it.
    But I have a feeling that it would be money better spent getting a decent electric winch.
     
  18. mcinfantry

    mcinfantry 1/2 ton status

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    nv4500 pto is not that big
    [​IMG]
     
  19. mcinfantry

    mcinfantry 1/2 ton status

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    my pto output can be turned around by me. its all modular
     
  20. POWERMAD

    POWERMAD 1/2 ton status

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    That may be a killer set up for that app. but....I am assuming he has a 465 gear box like I have.
    When I had it mocked up it stuck out like a sore pecker.
     

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