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Question regarding ULSDF & Duramax Injectors

Discussion in '1982-Present GM Diesel' started by 4by4bygod, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    Hi All!

    Anybody living in an area where 15ppm ultra low sulfur diesel fuel is mandated, and has it affected your truck?

    I had a guy tell me that he was with GM's duramax program, and he also said that the 15ppm fuel was tearing up injection systems and that the stanadyne additive wasn't getting the job done as far as providing adequate lubricity. He said that California and Alaska were the worst areas for problems.

    I'd expect a GM guy to blame problems on fuel and not on his own stuff, what has your experience been?

    Thanks, Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  2. imiceman44

    imiceman44 1 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Hi All!

    Anybody living in an area where 15ppm ultra low sulfur diesel fuel is mandated, and has it affected your truck?

    I had a guy tell me that he was with GM's duramax program, and he also said that the 15ppm fuel was tearing up injection systems and that the stanadyne additive wasn't getting the job done as far as providing adequate lubricity. He said that California and Alaska were the worst areas for problems.

    I'd expect a GM guy to blame problems on fuel and not on his own stuff, what has your experience been?

    Thanks, Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No experience with that one yet but I have had experience with older (67 perkins) engines with the low sulfur fuel and yes they need all the help they can get or your IP will be ripped appart.
    The newer trucks have been designed for lower sulfur but not 15ppm yet, they should get on it though because it's gonna be the wave of the future.
    Europe has been on it for a long time now.
    /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
     
  3. ben427

    ben427 1/2 ton status

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    That isnt a GM problem. Low sulphur diesel is the devil. Were hving serious problems around here with new cat backhoes wearing out injection pumps in 500-700 hrs. All engines runing low sulphur diesel sould use a fuel conditioner for added lubricity. VW recommends additives as well as most of the larger engine manufacturers. The cat dealership I work for sends out a case of fuel conditioner with every machine sold as to prevent any problems. I know ill be running conditioner when my new Dmax comes in in september.
     
  4. Pookster

    Pookster 1/2 ton status

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    too bad they cant just add the conditioner to the diesel before we get it?
     
  5. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    too bad they cant just add the conditioner to the diesel before we get it?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Then you'd get to miss the fun of paying them to replace your stuff.

    Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  6. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

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    I've read that as little as 3% biodiesel by volume (generally waste vegetable oil [WVO]), added to ULSD, solves the lubricity problems created by the removal of sulfur.
    Anyone other than Pookster experimenting with biodiesel, either as an additive to petrodiesel (ULSD or not) or as an alternative? I'm strongly considering it once I get my 6.2 swap running.
     
  7. ben427

    ben427 1/2 ton status

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    I dont know how these newer high pressure systems will handle the biodiesel, I know if you put even 2 percent ATF in diesel as an additive in a Cat HEUI engine it will blow the tips off the nozzles, so I dont know if biodoesel would be too thick or not.
     
  8. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I've read that as little as 3% biodiesel by volume (generally waste vegetable oil [WVO]), added to ULSD, solves the lubricity problems created by the removal of sulfur.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hi All!

    What's interesting is that there's no national standard for lubricity. There's been a lot of suggestions, but not an actual standard.

    Chevrons website stated that the 2 accepted tests for lubricity, the HFRR and SBOCLE tests, are an inaccurate determiner of a fuels lubricity, because they "have poor precision, and do not accurately predict performance for all fuel and additive combinations" Thus, there is no standard.

    I'm no scientist, but it seems to me that these tests don't take into account the effect of 4,000 degree combustion temps on the fuel / additive combos. How a lubricant acts under both heat & pressure will determine it's effictiveness, as we well know.

    Before I dump anything like that into my truck, I'd like to know what tests the biofuels folks used to arrive at the conclusion that they've solved the lubricity issue.

    Any other experiences with ULSD? I appreciate the responses.

    Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  9. jarheadk5

    jarheadk5 1/2 ton status

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    http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html

    Selected quotes from the page:
    - This is what commercial biodiesel producer Camillo Holecek of Biodiesel Raffinerie GmbH, Austria ( http://www.energea.at/en_info.html ) has to say about it:
    "As a commercial producer I used to tell my clients: Any European car maker's product after 1996 is 100% biodiesel-proof, as countries like France are already mixing 5% biodiesel in their standard diesel fuel sold at the pump, and in the Czech Republic it is 30% in the 'Bio-Naphta' that is also sold to anyone at the pump, and none of those car makers wants to get a bad name that his brand car failed in those important markets."


    - Terry de Winne (Biofuels for Sustainable Transport -- http://www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk/ ) has this to add:
    "Ultra low sulphur diesel fuel (ULSD) suffers from two things -- lack of the lubricity of the sulphur and also its ability to vulcanise any rubber components. Ergo, when Europe went over to ULSD in 1993/95, all fuel components were changed by all manufacturers to Viton or similar plastic."
    "Initially, supplies of ULSD were found to be very harsh on the injectors and caused many problems. Most oil companies added lubricity additives to compensate. The French, being farmer-friendly, opted for biodiesel. The three main companies add 5% to all their ULSD. Shell International adds just 2%, but even this small amount is enough to compensate for the removal of the sulphur. It also oxygenates the fuel and brings the emission levels down marginally -- particularly carbon monoxide and nitrous oxide. Hence, all Euro vehicles are compatible with biodiesel, whether or not the manufacturers acknowledge it."



    Here's the standards for biodiesel, including an ASTM standard:

    http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds

    I don't see anything in there about how lubricity is quantified, but if nothing else it's good reading.
     
  10. zcarczar

    zcarczar 1/2 ton status

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    According to GM its duramax Fuel system is capable of running fine without problems on 5% Biodiesel. We actually went and searched for this info on GM's Service Information Website since we had a truck in using Biofuel. It smells funny, but it seems to be fine.
     
  11. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    Thanks for the links & replies. All good reading.

    Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     
  12. 4by4bygod

    4by4bygod 1/2 ton status

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    <<That isnt a GM problem. Low sulphur diesel is the devil. Were hving serious problems around here with new cat backhoes wearing out injection pumps in 500-700 hrs. All engines runing low sulphur diesel sould use a fuel conditioner for added lubricity. VW recommends additives as well as most of the larger engine manufacturers. The cat dealership I work for sends out a case of fuel conditioner with every machine sold as to prevent any problems. I know ill be running conditioner when my new Dmax comes in in september.>>

    Is the fuel conditioner solving the problem, or are the backhoes still burning up?

    I meant to ask you this when you first posted it, sorry it took so long.

    Tom /forums/images/graemlins/usaflag.gif /forums/images/graemlins/k5.gif
     

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