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Rear link setup--whadda think--45ACP, BadDog, Springer, Borrego (susp gurus

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by SCOOBYDANNN, Sep 24, 2002.

  1. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    Tell me what you think about this setup---I read the axle wrap post after the fact, but i wanted to see what you guys think. It is a wishbone setup w/ poly bushings on the front(toward the front of the truck)and a 1" heim on the axle. I already took it out to the local flex spot and it seemed to give me about 3/4 of the flex i used to have (w/o shocks and any type of axle wrap inhibitor) in the soft sand it does awesome /forums/images/icons/grin.gif but in the flex dept. (more of what i want) i could be a little happier /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif. I have some ideas of what i think i need to do but i would like some more info.----give me the good the bad and the ugly-----

    pics

    <font color="brown"> what it looks like off the truck </font color>
    http://coloradok5.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=1435

    <font color="brown"> top view--about where the feet go is where the bushings go </font color> http://coloradok5.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=1440

    <font color="brown">where heim connects to axle (it is in the center of the axle)
    </font color> http://coloradok5.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=1439

    <font color="brown"> different view </font color>
    http://coloradok5.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=1437

    <font color="brown"> looking front and up </font color>
    http://coloradok5.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=1436

    if you need any more pics i can get them

    thanks

    Dan
     
  2. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    what is limiting your "flex"?
    is the upper heim the culprit?
    if so remount it 90deg from what it is now.
    the A arm should plunge into the ball of the heim
    or try adding spacers to allow jont to roll as far as possible
     
  3. Take a look at the way Steve Frisbie did his upper wishbone on his coil-over rear suspension. It basically looks just like what you have but has a pivot point where the heim is. As in the entire the area that the heim is can can turn with a sleeve built inside the piece that the two tubes are welded too. That will let the axle articulate more in the up and down, while the heim will let it go front to back. I think he has pics on his site and if not I took some and Indy.
     
  4. Michael

    Michael 1/2 ton status

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    Looks pretty good to me. You might want to add some "misalignment" spacers to get morre rotation out of the heim. It looks like you might need some more support for the bridge across the diferential, I can't see where it's attached very well. That's the way all the dezert trucks do it. The don't worry as much about articulation, mainly spring wrap.
    Misalignment Bushings
     
  5. marv_springer

    marv_springer 1/2 ton status

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    Danny,

    The fab work looks great! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ... but I believe the whole setup is binding - and that's what's caused your reduction in axle movement.

    The front half of your leaf springs act much like a locating link or radius arm, but they change length thru the change in shape of the spring. The "V" bar you've made won't change length at all - and requires that the mounting point on the axle move in a perfect arc. So, the worst axle mounting point would be at exactly the same vertical height as the leaf spring mounting point - this would cause binding in the system as soon as the springs need to change length. Looks like your mounting point is higher than the springpads, but I think the movement of the system is still reaching that binding point.

    So, what are the options?!....

    As I see it, you could raise the axle mounting point of the heim (if there's room).... but then you gotta build a tougher bracket.... This would get some vertical distance between the heim mounting point and the springs - but it might cause some binding in the lateral direction if you got too high.

    or, you could replace the heim w/ a slip bushing/spring mount that would allow for some forward and aft movement - but would still keep tension on the axle to resist wrapping.

    One thing cool is that your "V" bar soaks up the lateral forces and so you no longer need a trackbar!

    Marv
     
  6. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: Rear link setup--whadda think--45ACP, BadDog, Springer, Borrego (susp g

    I have to say i really like the quality of your fab work...it looks very professional!/forums/images/icons/cool.gif Here is an excerpt from a really good article that was posted in Bill's (45acp) thread.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Single bar setups

    Single bar setups are the most common that I've seen, probably because people are concerned with articulation and want to avoid limiting articulation by putting in a ladder bar or 4 link system that may travel through a different arc than the leaf springs and cause an articulation reducing bind. Most of the time rock crawlers locate the bar above the axle tube, differential housing or spring pack to avoid reducing ground clearance,

    Fixed length single bar systems located above the springs.

    In both of these systems the front half of the spring is going to be placed under compression as you accelerate because the pinion wants to climb in reaction to the axle torque being applied to the ground through the wheels. As most people know, when loaded like this, leaf springs tend to go into an "S" shape. This "S" shape makes the forward half of the spring shorter, and the compression effect from this type of single bar setup can actually make axle wrap worse by forcing the spring to get even shorter, putting it into more of an "S" shape and pointing the pinion higher. Obviously a stiffer spring would offer more resistance against going into an "S shape, but you wouldn't need any anti-wrap bar at all if your springs were that stiff.

    In other words, this type of setup is depending on the spring to stay rigid in order to achieve the triangulation it needs to hold the pinion angle steady. This is a bad idea because springs by their very nature are designed to bend. It is made even worse because the compression effect from this setup forces the front half of the spring to bend even more in the way that it naturally wants to bend during axle wrap. This may even possibly increase axle wrap. The unwanted effects will get worse as the rear mount gets higher. The more common single bars that locate directly above the leaf springs don't really cause much more axle wrap, but they don't help it either. All of these fixed length single bars setups reduce articulation because they don't allow for spring length to change during compression and extension.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    here is the link in case you missed it the first time.

    http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

    Rene
     
  7. marv_springer

    marv_springer 1/2 ton status

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    Looking at it again... I think there's another option which may be the best option... and you're already halfway there.

    Complete the 4 link:
    - you'd need to shackle mount the front of the springs too... so they have shackles at both ends.
    - then add 2 more links on the outside of the frame that attach to the axle on the lower side and run straight forward.

    Little more work, but you'd have it goin' on then! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

    Marv
     
  8. Donovan

    Donovan 1/2 ton status

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    First off the axle is being centered by the leaf spring and your wishbone setup. As you try to articutate, the top of the housing is trying to move sideways by a inch or two. This is because the top of the axle is not in the same plane as the leaf springs. Your wishbone is mounted 5-6 inches higher than the leaf spring plane. So if you made a single torque rod that has a heim aat the frame and the axle you will get the articulation you need and should help your axle wrap.
     
  9. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    Between Marv and Rene, I think they've pointed out what your after as far as info. Marv hit it on the nose with finishing the 4 link and shackling both sides of the leaf spring. You'll want to look into a panhard bar if you take this route to locate the axle and keep it from shifting side to side or reenforce the bar you have now.

    Definately good work. Do keep us posted and take more pics.
     
  10. TONYP

    TONYP 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Rear link setup--whadda think--45ACP, BadDog, Springer, Borrego (susp g

    Does anyone have or heard info on Missouri Offroad Outfitters over the drive shaft traction bars? Do they work or does it go back to only having one bar on top of the axel? Looking to build one or buy one, what do you think?
     
  11. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: Rear link setup--whadda think--45ACP, BadDog, Springer, Borrego (susp g

    Bill (45acp) is working on a 2 bar center mounted anti wrap bar. The design looks very promising so far. Of course the acid test will be how well it does on the truck...which we'll find out once all the parts have been built.

    Rene
     
  12. thatK30guy

    thatK30guy 1 ton status Premium Member

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    This is EXACTLY what I was trying to explain on Bill's (45acp) thread!!

    This setup would still work good if you could fab some traction bars from the axle to the frame, preferrably longer bars.
     
  13. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    what is limiting your "flex"?
    is the upper heim the culprit?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    we dont think the heim is the culprit---i think it is at the bushing side. the heim has little "misalignment" spacers and even then we didn't put a jam nut on it so it still moves even avter it hits its limit. what was weird was we got one of our "hevier" /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif friends to sit on the bed (i have no weight back there at all) and the the susp moved more (im obviously going to put more weight back ther, but do you thing this would solve it.)

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    You might want to add some "misalignment" spacers to get morre rotation out of the heim

    [/ QUOTE ]

    the ones we added were about 1/4" both sides of the heim, nowhere near as large as the ones you posted, but even then we didn't put a jam nut on the heim itself---so it still moves even after it hits the limit.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    , I can't see where it's attached very well. <font color="red"> That's the way all the dezert trucks do it </font color> . The don't worry as much about articulation, mainly spring wrap.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    he usually builds the baja trucks, and this is one of the first "rock crawlers" he's done.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    So, the worst axle mounting point would be at exactly the same vertical height as the leaf spring mounting point - this would cause binding in the system as soon as the springs need to change length. Looks like your mounting point is higher than the springpads, but I think the movement of the system is still reaching that binding point.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    it's mounted about 4-5 inches above the spring pads almost parallel w/ them---mabye a an inch or so towards the back

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    As I see it, you could raise the axle mounting point of the heim (if there's room).... but then you gotta build a tougher bracket.... This would get some vertical distance between the heim mounting point and the springs - but it might cause some binding in the lateral direction if you got too high.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    this is a plausable route of attck--but how high is too high.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    or, you could replace the heim w/ a slip bushing/spring mount that would allow for some forward and aft movement - but would still keep tension on the axle to resist wrapping.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i like this too but i have never heard of these.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Complete the 4 link:
    - you'd need to shackle mount the front of the springs too... so they have shackles at both ends.
    - then add 2 more links on the outside of the frame that attach to the axle on the lower side and run straight forward

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I am just a young buck when it comes to suspension modifying so how does the front shackle thing work---i understand what all the links do, but im confused on the shackle. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

    Thank you everyone and keep learnin me /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif --this is one of the most involved mod ive done yet---and im still a kiddy when it comes to this suspension lingo.

    the best part of everthing is it really cost me nothing to do all this---just time on Sunday to work on it /forums/images/icons/grin.gif so all opptions are open.
     
  14. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    I am just a young buck when it comes to suspension modifying so how does the front shackle thing work---i understand what all the links do, but im confused on the shackle.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    With the 4-link completed, the leaf spring does not need to locate the axle anymore, so by adding shackles at both ends you remove the binding between the leaf pack and the 4-link. The 4-link will keep the leaf pack from falling forward or backward on the shackles, so the shackles should stay near 90 degrees or perpendicular betweent he leaf pack and the frame. Proper geometry will keep them this way through out the range of motion in articulation.
     
  15. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    ok---that makes sense now---but---w/ the springer setup i have would that be hindered---how do i put it----a leaf spring will have its natural motion--up and down in the middle---right---but w/ the "springer"setup it the leaf dosn't really go the way a leaf was supposed to go----instead of dropping in the middle id drops at the shackle---does that make sense???
     
  16. BorregoK5

    BorregoK5 1/2 ton status

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    I had forgotton about your springer setup... hmmm that would really promote some insane droop... but again with the right link geometry, I'll bet you could get it to work cleanly.

    Marv, have you seen this done before with your setup? Its got my curiosity!
     
  17. marv_springer

    marv_springer 1/2 ton status

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    Basically the finished product would look like Steve Frisbee's rear setup, but with the "double shackled" leaves replacing the coilovers.

    Yes I've seen several setups like this..... Shannon Campbell built several Jeeps like this in the 90's before he 1/4 elliptic'd and coil-over'd everything. Only difference was that he used a "buggy" spring on the rear in stead of a "Springer" bracket.... I'm sure it would work the same. Several years ago, a yellow Jeep CJ competed in TTC with this setup - driven by Brett Epperly.

    Actually this is kinda cool... This would be the ultimate "Springer" setup and I've thought of doing it to mine several times. But my efforst got directed toward the FunBuggy and have not made any improvements to the Green thing in a couple of years... /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

    Marv
     
  18. m j

    m j 1/2 ton status

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    I didnt even notice he was still using leaves /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

    double shackles still bind like mad as they will want to locate the axle laterally, and I think they will fight fore and aft as well

    the best setup would be to add the lower bars and cut the springs for a 1/4 elip, you would retain the benis of leaf spring limiting droop
     
  19. SCOOBYDANNN

    SCOOBYDANNN 1/2 ton status

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    the guy is trying to convince me whack off the rear frame and tube it and do coils but i really want to make this setup work----getting the work done will only cost me time and i have sundays off /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
     
  20. marv_springer

    marv_springer 1/2 ton status

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    Seriously..... that might be the way to go!... A chopped/coil setup would give the benefit of a better departure angle!

    Marv
     

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