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Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back! UPDATE>FIXED IT!!!!!!

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by SCJimmy, Nov 2, 2003.

  1. SCJimmy

    SCJimmy 1/2 ton status

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    Yes I did the "noob" search /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    Yes, this horse has been well beaten.

    I have a specific question about the caster angle.

    The Specs:

    89 Jimmy, 1980 D60, completely rebuilt hub to hub, new everything. 4" TC springs. ORD crossover.

    First drive = Anus spasmic death wobble, so bad my stock front drive shaft fell apart! /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif

    (New F/R coming from High Angle soon)

    I measured the angle of the crossover arm at the blue arrow, and found 9*.
    (The measurement was taken with the tires mounted, and the truck sitting level on the ground)
    [​IMG]

    Based on what I found in my searches, it would appear that I need to install 5* shims to correct the caster angle to fix the DW.

    Since the axle is all new, I hate to install the washer fix to preload the kingpin bushings. A WTO steering box has been installed, and Lisa is sending the ram ASAP.

    I am trying to fix the problem here, and not just put a band aid on it.

    Need opinions ASAP, need to order the shims and angled shim plate Monday.

    Thanks,
    Byron

    UPDATE>>>>>>>>>>

    OK,
    I had already established that the caster was 9*, and it should have been 4*

    I also discovered that the dodge replacement spring perch I used on the driver's side was 5/8" shorter than stock, meaning that the truck had a noticable sag to the driver's side!

    I contacted TONYP, to get 5* shims made. After discovering the short spring perch, I asked him to make one of the shims 5/8" taller, to make up the difference.

    He came up with an "elevator shim" with a short centering pin on the bottom, and a threaded hole on the top to match the angle of the shim. He also made 5* top plates for both sides, and included allen head bolts to attach the shims to my spring packs on both sides.

    The result was a level truck with 4* caster measured at the crossover arm. And the bolts on the diff side pass straight up through the 5* top plate. I installed the 5* top plate on the driver's side to match the diff side.

    SOOOO....
    I finished my D60/14bff/HAD front-rear 1 ton cv shaft install tonight, and carefully test drove the truck.

    No death wobble. No steering stabilizer. WTO hydro not installed yet /forums/images/graemlins/eek.gif

    I drove the truck at varied speeds over the same road DW occured on before, braking and accelerating through 35mph with no problems.

    Seems like the problem is solved.....

    I'm not saying that it's the only or most cost effective fix, but correcting the caster angle worked for me.

    The 5* change also improved the front driveshaft angle! /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

    Many thanks to TONYP for making the custom shim, and rushing to get it and the shim/top plates delivered ASAP.

    Just my .02
    Byron
     
  2. Derf00

    Derf00 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    [ QUOTE ]
    Since the axle is all new, I hate to install the washer fix to preload the kingpin bushings.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Why? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif You said it was new hub to hub, but did you change the kingpin springs and bushings? Before you start throwing money at it, you can spend less than a dollar in parts and a few minuets in labor and possibly fix it. The ram will definately help, what ever the problem is.
     
  3. Confedneck

    Confedneck 3/4 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    less than a dollar in parts and a couple minutes? is it that easy to put the washers in? anyone got a write up? id be interested to learn even though im half ton..
     
  4. SCJimmy

    SCJimmy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Since the axle is all new, I hate to install the washer fix to preload the kingpin bushings.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Why? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif You said it was new hub to hub, but did you change the kingpin springs and bushings? Before you start throwing money at it, you can spend less than a dollar in parts and a few minuets in labor and possibly fix it. The ram will definately help, what ever the problem is.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, everything was replaced, Kingpins, springs, bushings, bottom bearing, race, seals...

    I may still end up applying the washer fix. The reason I'm looking at correcting the angle is to find and fix the problem once and for all.

    Spent 3 hours last night, searching the subject both here and PBB.

    I have spent many hours on the truck fixing various problems with mods, and I want to make the correct repair for the DW.

    Just like a challenge I guess. /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

    Thanks for the reply. I may make a trip to the hardware store this afternoon.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Byron
     
  5. Derf00

    Derf00 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    This is what is so maddening about DW, no specific cause and numerous things that might cause it. In my case I bolted up the 60 and it ran perfect for one year, then DW. After reading everthig I could find on CK5 and PBB, I refused to start throwing money at an unknown problem. I installed the Redneck Ram and that stopped it cold. It wasn't until after that that I learned of the washer trick, so I tried that and it solved the problem.

    In your case if the washers don't help, your problems as you suspect are caster or possibly tire problems. Please post the outcome. Good luck.
     
  6. denver75k5

    denver75k5 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    The washer's under the kingpin cap trick has worked for me for almost a year now, but the only problem I found is that if your running the stock caps (the thin pass side) it tends to bend the flat part of the cap up.
     
  7. SCJimmy

    SCJimmy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    [ QUOTE ]
    less than a dollar in parts and a couple minutes? is it that easy to put the washers in? anyone got a write up? id be interested to learn even though im half ton..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, it would be pretty easy...

    Remove the 4 bolts or nuts holding the cap/steering arm on, place the washers on top of the spring, replace the cap/arm. Squeeze the muthah down to get the nuts/bolts started, torque to specs.

    /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  8. earl87gta

    earl87gta 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    I kept the old spring cap so I could duble them up instead of using a washer.
     
  9. tRustyK5

    tRustyK5 Big meanie Staff Member Super Moderator GMOTM Winner Author

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    IMO the washers are the correct fix. It would appear to me that king pin spring preload as designed is not sufficient to control the DW. A little more preload on the springs is all it takes to kill DW.

    I run 4 washers (3 on the drivers side...long story) and have no problems with DW, 40's and a single stabilizer. I've put about 5000 miles on the D60 since i added the washers.

    Rene
     
  10. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    Replying to Rene, but meant for the original poster:

    As stated the correct fix for your application may be different, but the washer "trick" seems to be the solution for most. It isn't a "hack" fix, it is just a means by which you increase the spring preload (as different spring rates are not readily available). When original, the D60 was designed to be run in rigs with stock caster, a load (weight limit), and small tires on narrow rims with specific backspacing. As those things change (especially tire size, wheel width and backspacing), the forces that act upon the axle (even if it is a strong unit) change. Sometimes you need to compensate for that change (even brand new OE spec'd parts might not do it), so adding a spacer or two (or in Rene's case 3 and 1) might be the proper fix. Also remember that no two rigs are the same and no two D60's are the same. Many parts on our rigs were built under "tolerance" conditions. One axle piece may be on one end of the tolerance spectrum while another part is on the other, add to that years of wear and tear and you can have a huge difference (tolerancy speaking) from one axle to another.....just food for thought.

    And I do agree that investigating the problem and finding the proper solution is key before throwing money and/or parts at it, but sometimes the proper fixes might not be the most conventional.
     
  11. Stephen

    Stephen 1/2 ton status Moderator Vendor

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    Keep in mind that you can coil bind the spring so be careful with the size of the washer stack. If you're bending the cap, this might be the culprit. You may also find decreased life on the springs due to the spacers and/or the DW problems, but they are pretty cheap and if that's what I have to do to avoid ball joints, I'll take it.
    9* sounds steep on the castor, make sure the truck and driveway are level, I'm guessing you shouldn't have more than about 6 with that suspension but once again, it can be different.
     
  12. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot 1/2 ton status Premium Member

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    [ QUOTE ]
    Keep in mind that you can coil bind the spring so be careful with the size of the washer stack

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oops /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif very important point I missed. Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif
     
  13. SCJimmy

    SCJimmy 1/2 ton status

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    Re: Return of the DW, or The D60 Strikes Back!

    Updated at the top, with the fix & outcome...
     

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